Why I'm not an atheist

[shunyadragon]

And this is as you believe.

As I believe? You need to better than that. I present my case by actual citations of metacrock's posts, and not what I believe. I am still waiting for coherent rational rebuttal why these are not logical fallacies, but substantial coherent responses do not appear to be forthcoming.

[37818]

As I believe? You need to better than that. I present my case by actual citations of metacrock's posts, and not what I believe. I am still waiting for coherent rational rebuttal why these are not logical fallacies, but substantial coherent responses do not appear to be forthcoming.

My responce was to your responce to my comment. Again, your arguments are according to your underetandings and beliefs. Now if you want to deal with one specific.

[Meh Gerbil]

Not mine?

Trout and I brought them here, you're why they stick around.

[Carrikature]

However, perhaps God reveals himself to those he chooses? Not that we're positioned in this thread to talk coherently about the Bible, but I have to think that he revealed himself to only a tiny fraction of the population biblically speaking, perhaps a smaller percentage than he does today?

I always need an answer to 'why'. I could accept the idea of an elect of which I'm not counted, but I don't understand why I would be excluded.

[seer]

I could accept the idea of an elect of which I'm not counted, but I don't understand why I would be excluded.

You smell funny? Though it may be that God reveals himself more fully to those He knows will respond positively.

[Carrikature]

You smell funny? Though it may be that God reveals himself more fully to those He knows will respond positively.

This is a common enough answer. I find it to be utter rubbish. God can show you what you need to convert, but he won't show me what I need to convert? "But free will!" the Christian says, to which I'll point out that if free will isn't violated by your experience, it won't be by mine.

Far better, and more honest (imo), to not attempt a rationalization.

[seer]

This is a common enough answer. I find it to be utter rubbish. God can show you what you need to convert, but he won't show me what I need to convert? "But free will!" the Christian says, to which I'll point out that if free will isn't violated by your experience, it won't be by mine.

Far better, and more honest (imo), to not attempt a rationalization.

Yes and that is your opinion. How do you know you would not find God repulsive? What you need for conversion is Him - and that is the very thing that you may reject. Which would cause you greater condemnation. Having said that - your life if not over, you still have hope.

[37818]

This is a common enough answer. I find it to be utter rubbish. God can show you what you need to convert, but he won't show me what I need to convert? "But free will!" the Christian says, to which I'll point out that if free will isn't violated by your experience, it won't be by mine.

Far better, and more honest (imo), to not attempt a rationalization.

Actually, through a writing of an Apostle citing claims attributed to Jesus as the Christ, there is a way to know from God. When was the last time you read the gospel account according to John? The means is found in that writing.

[Sparko]

This is a common enough answer. I find it to be utter rubbish. God can show you what you need to convert, but he won't show me what I need to convert? "But free will!" the Christian says, to which I'll point out that if free will isn't violated by your experience, it won't be by mine.

Far better, and more honest (imo), to not attempt a rationalization.

He still might. I didn't become a Christian until I was almost 40 years old.

Do you WANT to believe in God? Or do you want to believe there is no God?

Not asking what you DO believe about God, but what you want to believe? Do you think the universe is better with a God or without?

[Meh Gerbil]

He still might. I didn't become a Christian until I was almost 40 years old.
Do you WANT to believe in God? Or do you want to believe there is no God?
Not asking what you DO believe about God, but what you want to believe? Do you think the universe is better with a God or without?

For right or for wrong I've a tendency to shy away from these sorts of questions.

From the atheist perspective 'God' is undefined and even if the atheist acquiesces to your particular definition the question is overloaded with the baggage of two thousand years of utter foolishness. The thinking goes like this: If I do believe in 'God' I will get sucked into an entirely ridiculous world view wherein I either end up kissing the pope's ring finger for my salvation or decrying the pope as antichrist while I protest the funerals of homosexuals.

The baggage of Christianity alone is enough to make the question "Do you believe in God?" a horrifying consideration.

I think legalistic Christians and atheists (in fact, all people) have basically the same problem.
They all have to be willing to set the ego down long enough for God to reveal Himself as He exists.
I think that approach fosters curiosity and humility.

[Sparko]

For right or for wrong I've a tendency to shy away from these sorts of questions.

From the atheist perspective 'God' is undefined and even if the atheist acquiesces to your particular definition the question is overloaded with the baggage of two thousand years of utter foolishness. The thinking goes like this: If I do believe in 'God' I will get sucked into an entirely ridiculous world view wherein I either end up kissing the pope's ring finger for my salvation or decrying the pope as antichrist while I protest the funerals of homosexuals.

The baggage of Christianity alone is enough to make the question "Do you believe in God?" a horrifying consideration.

I think legalistic Christians and atheists (in fact, all people) have basically the same problem.
They all have to be willing to set the ego down long enough for God to reveal Himself as He exists.
I think that approach fosters curiosity and humility.

Well even if your thinking is what is going through Car's brain, it answers my question. If someone doesn't WANT to believe in God, then they won't. They will do everything in their power to avoid "getting sucked in" - and therefore they can't expect God to knock on their door and say "here I am" because even if he did, they would turn away and deny it happened. You first have to be open to the idea of God before you can recognize any calling by Him. If you unplug your phone, you aren't going to get any calls.

[Meh Gerbil]

Well even if your thinking is what is going through Car's brain, it answers my question. If someone doesn't WANT to believe in God, then they won't. They will do everything in their power to avoid "getting sucked in" - and therefore they can't expect God to knock on their door and say "here I am" because even if he did, they would turn away and deny it happened. You first have to be open to the idea of God before you can recognize any calling by Him. If you unplug your phone, you aren't going to get any calls.

How do you square this with Paul's conversion?

I cannot say who has the correct view on this issue, again, as I usually do on this forum I'm just spit ballin'.

Key verses for me are '[you] are dead in your sins' and '[you] are slaves to sin'.
It seems to me the atheist may not have the ability to open himself up to anything.
To my way of thinking 'It is too painful, too uncertain, too weird to believe in God' seems less arrogant than 'I mustered enough strength to open myself up to God and give the ole' boy a fair shot'.

As for the sucked in comment all I was suggesting there was that 'Do you believe in God?' is question that carries the weight of more than simply acknowledging a God exists - the implications are enormous. For many atheists answering that question in the affirmative means utterly abandoning logic and science because, let's be honest, in America we have some truly nutty believers and they make belief in God look like a renunciation of one's brain.

[Sparko]

How do you square this with Paul's conversion?

I cannot say who has the correct view on this issue, again, as I usually do on this forum I'm just spit ballin'.

Key verses for me are '[you] are dead in your sins' and '[you] are slaves to sin'.
It seems to me the atheist may not have the ability to open himself up to anything.
To my way of thinking 'It is too painful, too uncertain, too weird to believe in God' seems less arrogant than 'I mustered enough strength to open myself up to God and give the ole' boy a fair shot'.

As for the sucked in comment all I was suggesting there was that 'Do you believe in God?' is question that carries the weight of more than simply acknowledging a God exists - the implications are enormous. For many atheists answering that question in the affirmative means utterly abandoning logic and science because, let's be honest, in America we have some truly nutty believers and they make belief in God look like a renunciation of one's brain.

[Carrikature]

Yes and that is your opinion. How do you know you would not find God repulsive? What you need for conversion is Him - and that is the very thing that you may reject. Which would cause you greater condemnation. Having said that - your life if not over, you still have hope.

If he's anything like what he's claimed to be, I have no idea why anyone would find him repulsive.

[seer]

If he's anything like what he's claimed to be, I have no idea why anyone would find him repulsive.

Really? You don't find His judgments in the Old and New Testaments troubling? I do however think it is his Holiness or moral purity (not His grace) that would be the problem. Like I said in the other thread when I encountered God (as I believe I did) it was both dreadful and wonderful. Then there is the whole pride thing - i.e. no gods no masters - I believe that runs deeper in our nature than we realize. That is why often a man must come to an end of himself, or really be up against it, before he is humbled enough to open the door.