Free will?

[lee_merrill]

Because they all share the same nature.

Well, how do you conclude that free will is part of human nature?

The sinner has fee will and chooses sin and the repentant sinner, chooses against sin and is free 'to be' a son of God. I would agree that the man or woman who chooses selfishness or sin is, in that moment, not free to Live.

Yet sinners apart from Christ are dead, spiritually, and a dead person is not free.

In the Christian tradition, it is Jesus who sets us free but any who turn from selfishness to selflessness (Love or God - Gospel of John) is made (becomes) free. None can do this unless they are first loved which again is God, so none can be free to be fully human without God.

I agree that none can be free to be fully human without God--note also that the analogies of salvation are all passive on our part: new birth, new creation, life from the dead, etc. So no one can turn on their own to selflessness, and receive salvation.

If one does not have free will then there is no culpability, one cannot be blamed.

Why then was the ox that gored to be stoned, and its flesh not eaten? (Ex. 21:28)

p.s. hello from Cary, NC

Go Duke! And N.C. State, and U.N.C.

Blessings,
Lee

[footwasher]

I get what your saying but I think it all has to be explained in a way that will actually speak to a 21st C audience........and I say this as someone who was a theology teacher in the 20th C and saw the same need and addressed it. Ideas like God causing problems so we can solve them, the need for great works to convict us, God indwelling or God empowering people? Guys named Rahab and Nicodemus - who cares about these guys? What is justification, how does it work? What do you mean by the Holy Spirit, what do you mean by revelation and on and on and on.

These are not my questions so don't provide further explanations. I get it. But this is a foreign language for many living today and using terms that you take as gospel truth - we have to stretch our language and take great pains and make efforts to let it 'make sense' and speak to people with a 21st C worldview. Very few do this or have the ability/interest to do this. As a chairperson I had to observe a priest teaching a class about the Sacraments. I interviewed the seniors afterward and they had no idea what the guy was talking about - and they certainly didn't buy it. It can't be Good news that changes lives if it is not understood.

Perhaps at some point we should translate.

The intention, here on this forum, is to equip those who are going to be blessings to the world:


Luke 8:10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.


John 13:14If I then, your Master and Rabbi, have washed your feet, it

is also your duty to wash one another's feet.


Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.


28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. 30For we are members of His body.


If you got it, mission accomplished.

Hope you also got you need to be justified.

[thormas]

Well, how do you conclude that free will is part of human nature?


Yet sinners apart from Christ are dead, spiritually, and a dead person is not free.


I agree that none can be free to be fully human without God--note also that the analogies of salvation are all passive on our part: new birth, new creation, life from the dead, etc. So no one can turn on their own to selflessness, and receive salvation.


Why then was the ox that gored to be stoned, and its flesh not eaten? (Ex. 21:28)


Go Duke! And N.C. State, and U.N.C.

Blessings,
Lee

Simply by the experience of myself (and others), studying/reading experts on the subject, consideration/reflection on a theology of a God and man and a keen sense of the obvious:+}

Sinners apart from Christ or simply any human being 'separated' from the (fullest expression of) their true humanity by selfishness are dead 'spiritually' but such dead is not the death of free will (to choose another way). There is a difference in the freedom to be and free will.

Agreed again: no one can turn, on their own, to selflessness. It seems radical but indeed no one can be 'human' without God, simply no one can attain the fullness of humanity without Love (i.e. God). The truest expression of humanity is when Love is incarnate in humanity: Divinity in humanity so humanity can 'become' divinity. it is interesting that the Word, in and through other humans, must call, judge and challenge us to respond and it is the Spirit or Love, also given through other humans, that gives us the courage to respond and be. It would seem that the eternal mode(s) of God is always incarnational - in and through the human. We are passive, as you say, but we are also the co-creator (active).

No idea, I have never reflected on that but a real shame for the ox.

[thormas]

The intention, here on this forum, is to equip those who are going to be blessings to the world:


Luke 8:10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.


John 13:14If I then, your Master and Rabbi, have washed your feet, it

is also your duty to wash one another's feet.


Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.


28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. 30For we are members of His body.


If you got it, mission accomplished.

Hope you also got you need to be justified.

If that is one of the intentions it must still be delivered in a 'language' that can be understood by the listener for only then can they be the intended blessing.

Not sure what there was to get and have no idea what you mean by justified. That is another word that needs to be translated to be properly understood.

[footwasher]

If that is one of the intentions it must still be delivered in a 'language' that can be understood by the listener for only then can they be the intended blessing.

Sure, but it presupposes you have heard of Rahab and Nicodemus, that I don’t have to address you like I would address a non-believer.

Not sure what there was to get and have no idea what you mean by justified. That is another word that needs to be translated to be properly understood.

You say you get it, several times, regarding my explanation of what Scripture means, by terms like justification and sanctification. Obviously, you didn’t. No matter, it does require repeating sometimes, to get across.

https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...20#post1191720

Quote
I get what your saying but I think it all has to be explained in a way that will actually speak to a 21st C audience........and I say this as someone who was a theology teacher in the 20th C and saw the same need and addressed it. Ideas like God causing problems so we can solve them, the need for great works to convict us, God indwelling or God empowering people? Guys named Rahab and Nicodemus - who cares about these guys? What is justification, how does it work? What do you mean by the Holy Spirit, what do you mean by revelation and on and on and on.

These are not my questions so don't provide further explanations. I get it.


Justification can be easier understood if it is translated as ‘recognised as right’, ‘compliant’. Abraham believed God would bring him into a state of being a blessing to the world, and he was justified, recognised as compliant with the qualifications required to be considered a member of God’s flock, a follower. Which entitles him to revelations from the Holy Spirit, which strengthens that trust. Remember the famine that caused Abraham to flee to Egypt and be threatened by Pharoah and be delivered? That was the Holy Spirit. He remembered the incident, so when God tested his belief by asking him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice, he obeyed, believing God would return his son back to him, passing the test to see if his trust was real, perfecting his faith, justifying him again, this time recognising him as sanctified, pure, separated out of the world, a member of God's family, friend.


James 2:21Was not Abraham our father justified (recognised as compliant towards sanctification, identifying as God's friend through deed, as opposed to being recognised as compliant towards justification, identifying as God’s servant, through mental assent) by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

Amplification in brackets are mine.


We can see that Israel, both in the OT as well as the NT, did not remember God’s works, and did not enter Rest:

Psalm 78:32In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; despite His wonderful works, they did not believe.

Matthew 11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Of course, you aren’t going to receive edifying revelations from the Holy Spirit unless you have been justified, which was why Paul asked the believers in Acts 19 if they HAD been so justified:

Acts 19:1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

Since you, like they, were not previously offered the proposal, you have also, obviously, not been justified.

[thormas]

Sure, but it presupposes you have heard of Rahab and Nicodemus, that I don’t have to address you like I would address a non-believer.



You say you get it, several times, regarding my explanation of what Scripture means, by terms like justification and sanctification. Obviously, you didn’t. No matter, it does require repeating sometimes, to get across.

https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...20#post1191720

Quote
I get what your saying but I think it all has to be explained in a way that will actually speak to a 21st C audience........and I say this as someone who was a theology teacher in the 20th C and saw the same need and addressed it. Ideas like God causing problems so we can solve them, the need for great works to convict us, God indwelling or God empowering people? Guys named Rahab and Nicodemus - who cares about these guys? What is justification, how does it work? What do you mean by the Holy Spirit, what do you mean by revelation and on and on and on.

These are not my questions so don't provide further explanations. I get it.


Justification can be easier understood if it is translated as ‘recognised as right’, ‘compliant’. Abraham believed God would bring him into a state of being a blessing to the world, and he was justified, recognised as compliant with the qualifications required to be considered a member of God’s flock, a follower. Which entitles him to revelations from the Holy Spirit, which strengthens that trust. Remember the famine that caused Abraham to flee to Egypt and be threatened by Pharoah and be delivered? That was the Holy Spirit. He remembered the incident, so when God tested his belief by asking him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice, he obeyed, believing God would return his son back to him, passing the test to see if his trust was real, perfecting his faith, justifying him again, this time recognising him as sanctified, pure, separated out of the world, a member of God's family, friend.


James 2:21Was not Abraham our father justified (recognised as compliant towards sanctification, identifying as God's friend through deed, as opposed to being recognised as compliant towards justification, identifying as God’s servant, through mental assent) by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

Amplification in brackets are mine.


We can see that Israel, both in the OT as well as the NT, did not remember God’s works, and did not enter Rest:

Psalm 78:32In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; despite His wonderful works, they did not believe.

Matthew 11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Of course, you aren’t going to receive edifying revelations from the Holy Spirit unless you have been justified, which was why Paul asked the believers in Acts 19 if they HAD been so justified:

Acts 19:1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

Since you, like they, were not previously offered the proposal, you have also, obviously, not been justified.

If one of the intentions is to enable those here to be blessings to the world, then we must be able to speak to that world in a way that they can truly hear............and understand.

I doubt even many believer have ever heard of Rahab. Plus from a teaching perspective, I would take the 'gist of the story' and retell it for a modern audience within their present frame of reference.

Oh, I understand the words but the issue is what do you mean by them and what is the best way (once again) to explain it to, let's say, teenagers in 2020 but I would include even older people. Biblical quote doesn't always do it......especially without explanation. You rely on biblical quotes but don't quote, instead explain, I mean really explain, in real time, within our worldview and using present day images what you understand by the quotes.......rather than simply quoting more or rehashing the same words and thinking that is an adequate explanation.

Your explanation of justification still doesn't work for a present day audience - ‘recognised as right’..... ‘compliant’........recognized as compliant with the qualifications required to be considered a member of God’s flock.............entitled to revelations from the Holy Spirit......which strengthens that trust. Then to say something was the Holy Spirit when you refer to Abraham, Egypt and Pharaoh.

Questions abound: recognized as right" what qualifications? what was the Holy Spirit? what do you mean by Holy Spirit? what revelations? what do you mean by revelations? how does that work? the Holy Spirit caused a famine? sacrifice his son? are you kidding? what kind of God would do that? how does willingness to kill your kid justify anyone?


These are the kinds of questions that are asked, that we must deal with and that we must be prepared to answer. If we can't................then it won't resonate, it won't speak to them where we find them, there will be no good news, no revelation, no justification.

So, what does all that you say and quote mean to a modern audience..........so it's not a question of do I get it but will they?


I ask this all respectfully as a former teacher and a lil long student of Christianity.

[footwasher]

If one of the intentions is to enable those here to be blessings to the world, then we must be able to speak to that world in a way that they can truly hear............and understand.

Once again, I’m not addressing fresh believers. I’m washing the feet of those who are clean, who don’t need a bath, just a little touch up, even as I received much touching up from this forum, for so many years.

I doubt even many believer have ever heard of Rahab. Plus from a teaching perspective, I would take the 'gist of the story' and retell it for a modern audience within their present frame of reference.

Speak for yourself, we ain’t so dense here, as you’ll find out after some time. Some of the posters are highly qualified, written books comparable to those of Bruce, and Fee and Wright.

Oh, I understand the words but the issue is what do you mean by them and what is the best way (once again) to explain it to, let's say, teenagers in 2020 but I would include even older people. Biblical quote doesn't always do it......especially without explanation. You rely on biblical quotes but don't quote, instead explain, I mean really explain, in real time, within our worldview and using present day images what you understand by the quotes.......rather than simply quoting more or rehashing the same words and thinking that is an adequate explanation.

Even in normal conversation points don’t get across, proved by the many “What do you mean?” that we often hear on TV interviews. If the explanation is repeated in different ways (Again, the Kingdom of God is like…) the information eventually gets passed over.

Your explanation of justification still doesn't work for a present day audience - ‘recognised as right’..... ‘compliant’........recognized as compliant with the qualifications required to be considered a member of God’s flock.............entitled to revelations from the Holy Spirit......which strengthens that trust. Then to say something was the Holy Spirit when you refer to Abraham, Egypt and Pharaoh.

Well Scripture sees things differently from you:

1 Corinthians 10:2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

....
Hebrews 4:2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said: “So I swore on oath in My anger, ‘They shall never enter My rest.’ ”

Now tell me, did they receive edifying revelations from the Holy Spirit when they believed, assented mentally, or not? In other words, did what Paul tell the believers in Acts 19 to do result in the edifying revelations from the Holy Spirit?

Acts 19:1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interiora and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?”

“No,” they answered, “we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked.

“The baptism of John,” they replied.

4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.


And did the same Paul not tell the church in Galatia not to try to be perfected by “circumcision”, but by demonstrating their trust with loyal deeds, just like Abraham, parallelly described in James 2?

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? 5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

6So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Questions abound: recognized as right" what qualifications?

Belief that God can save from difficulty faced in solving problems and hard to explain Scripture.

what was the Holy Spirit? what do you mean by Holy Spirit? what revelations? what do you mean by revelations? how does that work?

He is the power of God, creating calamities and darkness, for God to dispel through His sanctified. He creates the situation of a blind man, so that Jesus through the finger of God can heal from blindness. The text is straightforward here:

John 9:3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

the Holy Spirit caused a famine?

Sure, as stated here:

Isaiah 45:77I form the light and create the darkness;

I bring prosperity and create calamity.

I, the LORD, do all these things.

sacrifice his son? are you kidding? what kind of God would do that? how does willingness to kill your kid justify anyone?

The kind of God described in the Bible, who requires proof that your faith is real, before He allows you to be sanctified, enter Rest, be in His presence in a powerful way:

Genesis 22:11Just then the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. 12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.

These are the kinds of questions that are asked, that we must deal with and that we must be prepared to answer. If we can't................then it won't resonate, it won't speak to them where we find them, there will be no good news, no revelation, no justification.

So, what does all that you say and quote mean to a modern audience..........so it's not a question of do I get it but will they?

I ask this all respectfully as a former teacher and a lil long student of Christianity.

Again, I think I’m addressing a teacher of the Israel of God, not the modern, raw audience. You are a teacher and you don’t know these views? I’m sorry to say this, but maybe you should ask for a refund from whoever qualified you to be accredited to teach Christian theology. Or maybe I am addressing the raw audience: multiple years of experience of say 20 years could be just the experience of 1 year repeated 20 times.

[thormas]

Actually, neither am I. All my teaching were for teenagers raised in the Christian Faith and the questions and confusion they each brought to the class were amazing. In addition I have been to many lectures, offered by a theologian or a biblical scholar, attended exclusively by adults, the vast majority Christians.......and the questions still were plentiful, the confusion, even anger evident, yet still open and wanting to learn.

Mere biblical quotes don't do it and explanations using the same words (as I indicated above) also don't do it. As an example one can mention the Trinity until they are blue in the face but the questions, confusion and disillusionment remain - unless there is a way for people - perhaps not all but still many people, many Christians - they simply turn and move on.

I'll simply leave it there.

thormas

p.s. no one said or implied you or others are dense. I don't think that. Nor did I ever think my students, hundred upon hundred were. However they were hungry to understand (as are adults) and a way must be found to do that.
You can stop the dramatics and the false accusations and discuss or not.

[footwasher]

Actually, neither am I. All my teaching were for teenagers raised in the Christian Faith and the questions and confusion they each brought to the class were amazing. In addition I have been to many lectures, offered by a theologian or a biblical scholar, attended exclusively by adults, the vast majority Christians.......and the questions still were plentiful, the confusion, even anger evident, yet still open and wanting to learn.

Mere biblical quotes don't do it and explanations using the same words (as I indicated above) also don't do it. As an example one can mention the Trinity until they are blue in the face but the questions, confusion and disillusionment remain - unless there is a way for people - perhaps not all but still many people, many Christians - they simply turn and move on.

I'll simply leave it there.

thormas

p.s. no one said or implied you or others are dense. I don't think that. Nor did I ever think my students, hundred upon hundred were. However they were hungry to understand (as are adults) and a way must be found to do that.
You can stop the dramatics and the false accusations and discuss or not.

Well you're questioning basic teachings, we don't want to face this situation at this point, do we:

1 Corinthians 3:211Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,

You should get up to speed before you question. Else you'll be slowing down the class. I was green too, so I just read, lurked, before I tried to challenge views, which by the way isn't a bad thing. It just should be appropriate. Why question the basics, the established?

[thormas]

Well you're questioning basic teachings, we don't want to face this situation at this point, do we:

1 Corinthians 3:211Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,

You should get up to speed before you question. Else you'll be slowing down the class. I was green too, so I just read, lurked, before I tried to challenge views, which by the way isn't a bad thing. It just should be appropriate. Why question the basics, the established?

Actually, I'm not questioning basic teachings. I am just suggesting to you that more than quotes upon quotes - or explanations using the same language in the quote (without further explanation) - are inadequate for the wider Christian community.

I don't question the truth of your (other or) new quote - and this quote, unlike so many of your other quotes, is more easily understood because milk and solid food are understood in today's everyday language and experience.

You do get testy and although I prefer to avoid your kind of attacks. I'll simply say I am more than up to speed, I am not green, I never lurked (creepy) but I always question - and in questioning arrive at a deeper understanding ......and am therefore better able to empathize with others and explain so they too can actually understand. That is what good teachers do.

Your welcome.

[footwasher]

Actually, I'm not questioning basic teachings. I am just suggesting to you that more than quotes upon quotes - or explanations using the same language in the quote (without further explanation) - are inadequate for the wider Christian community.

I don't question the truth of your (other or) new quote - and this quote, unlike so many of your other quotes, is more easily understood because milk and solid food are understood in today's everyday language and experience.

You do get testy and although I prefer to avoid your kind of attacks. I'll simply say I am more than up to speed, I am not green, I never lurked (creepy) but I always question - and in questioning arrive at a deeper understanding ......and am therefore better able to empathize with others and explain so they too can actually understand. That is what good teachers do.

Your welcome.

Then why do you say many mature Christians have no Idea who Rahab was? She is mentioned several times in the NT as a positive model, a person to imitate, for not just believing, but acting, giving not just lip service, but putting her life on the line for what she believes?

As for willingness to discuss, I would assume you wouldn't even be able to do a deep dive into just one teaching: justification required to be accepted, to be given the Holy Spirit. What do you think is the offer made in the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus? In other words, what is the cognitive content of the proposal, that one should claim to believe, give mental assent to, in the teaching of Jesus, after which baptism can be given?

Acts 19:4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

[thormas]

Then why do you say many mature Christians have no Idea who Rahab was? She is mentioned several times in the NT as a positive model, a person to imitate, for not just believing, but acting, giving not just lip service, but putting her life on the line for what she believes?

As for willingness to discuss, I would assume you wouldn't even be able to do a deep dive into just one teaching: justification required to be accepted, to be given the Holy Spirit. What do you think is the offer made in the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus? In other words, what is the cognitive content of the proposal, that one should claim to believe, give mental assent to, in the teaching of Jesus, after which baptism can be given?

Acts 19:4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

You think they do. I simply, based on experience, don't think they do. Perhaps some evangelicals or one who focuses on Rahab. Not sure how you measure maturity but I know many 'mature' Christians and I know that this particular character does not rank with the major players in the testaments.

Again with the insults but I do love your Christianity at work. I believe I asked once before what your understanding of justification and I really didn't get an answer - just more quotes. which means you have the quotes but I was interested in your understanding. Do you actually understand what justification is, Even the phrase "justification required to be accepted, given by the HS" is vague. We can read the words ......but what does it all mean (I don't need the answer, I ask on behalf of others that want to truly understand). I can imagine people asking, "if the grace of God is freely given, how then is something 'required' to be accepted?" And, "how exactly does the HS give it?" As for baptism, we have the reality that since most are baptized as infants, what is the possible meaning of any offer and 'mental assent' since the infant lacks this capacity? Are you able to not just quote but explain? Yet, once again,you give even more quotes.

[footwasher]

You think they do. I simply, based on experience, don't think they do. Perhaps some evangelicals or one who focuses on Rahab. Not sure how you measure maturity but I know many 'mature' Christians and I know that this particular character does not rank with the major players in the testaments.

Again with the insults but I do love your Christianity at work. I believe I asked once before what your understanding of justification and I really didn't get an answer - just more quotes. which means you have the quotes but I was interested in your understanding. Do you actually understand what justification is, Even the phrase "justification required to be accepted, given by the HS" is vague. We can read the words ......but what does it all mean (I don't need the answer, I ask on behalf of others that want to truly understand). I can imagine people asking, "if the grace of God is freely given, how then is something 'required' to be accepted?" And, "how exactly does the HS give it?" As for baptism, we have the reality that since most are baptized as infants, what is the possible meaning of any offer and 'mental assent' since the infant lacks this capacity? Are you able to not just quote but explain? Yet, once again,you give even more quotes.

Look, I asked you what the belief in Jesus meant in the verse:

Acts 19:4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

I didn't simply quote Scripture.

I repeat. Do you know what the belief in Jesus, required by JOHN THE BAPTIST himself, means? Yes or No. If Yes, what is it?

[thormas]

Look, I asked you what the belief in Jesus meant in the verse:

Acts 19:4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

I didn't simply quote Scripture.

I repeat. Do you know what the belief in Jesus, required by JOHN THE BAPTIST himself, means? Yes or No. If Yes, what is it?

You again are giving a quote and not providing explanation which I asked about. So, once again, only quotes.

The first thing I would begin with - because I have been asked about it before - is this historical, what are they repenting for with John, how does he know Jesus is coming (human being don't know the future), how is the HS given or better what does it mean when the HS is given? And who speaks in tongues? And, what do we mean by prophecy? And, how did John know that Jesus was the expected Messiah? Was he saying something more about the identity of Jesus? How did he know?

See how this works? Yet you only give quotes and play the game of who knows what rather than recognizing how much must go into this small quote to begin to help people, Christians need more than to be able to pass your quiz ........they need to 'understand in a meaningful way and be changed because of their belief.'

Get it?

[footwasher]

You again are giving a quote and not providing explanation which I asked about. So, once again, only quotes.

The first thing I would begin with - because I have been asked about it before - is this historical, what are they repenting for with John, how does he know Jesus is coming (human being don't know the future), how is the HS given or better what does it mean when the HS is given? And who speaks in tongues? And, what do we mean by prophecy? And, how did John know that Jesus was the expected Messiah? Was he saying something more about the identity of Jesus? How did he know?

See how this works? Yet you only give quotes and play the game of who knows what rather than recognizing how much must go into this small quote to begin to help people, Christians need more than to be able to pass your quiz ........they need to 'understand in a meaningful way and be changed because of their belief.'

Get it?

In other words, you don't know what the belief in Jesus means. Thanks. See how easy that was?