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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Did you mean John 8:34? "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin", note, everyone, not just Jewish people here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Oops. yes John 8:34. I couldn't correct it when I saw it yesterday, passing the time limit for editing.

    You know, the Gentiles were boasting of the works that God considered, to include them in the Body of Christ.

    Ephesians 2: 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    In Romans 2 and 3, Paul says that all were considered in the same way by God, the Jews under Law, the Gentiles under conscience. One was a formal covenant of works, the other informal. All were justified by God showing mercy, because all had failed, there was none righteous, neither Jew nor Gentile.

    However, in John 8, Jesus was talking to Jews.
    Last edited by footwasher; 10-13-2020, 01:26 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Well, not just a sign, the cross is the instrument by which self is put to death.
      Do you mean the Jesus's crucifixion resulted in my old self dying?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
        Do you mean the Jesus's crucifixion resulted in my old self dying?
        The two are indeed related, through the cross, the old self is put to death.

        As he grew older, he came to realize that he had to face up to temptation and defeat in his Christian walk. Perhaps his greatest weakness was his temper. He said to himself, "This won't do in a child of God," and he determined to meet God at every opportunity. Setting aside ten days, he presented his body a living sacrifice. He prayed, wept, soaked in the Word, and pleaded the promises. He faced up to the cross until he began to understand what Paul meant in Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me". This is how he described the experience to me: "God worked the old Wigglesworth-nature out and worked the new Jesus-nature in." (Smith Wigglesworth)

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          The two are indeed related, through the cross, the old self is put to death.

          As he grew older, he came to realize that he had to face up to temptation and defeat in his Christian walk. Perhaps his greatest weakness was his temper. He said to himself, "This won't do in a child of God," and he determined to meet God at every opportunity. Setting aside ten days, he presented his body a living sacrifice. He prayed, wept, soaked in the Word, and pleaded the promises. He faced up to the cross until he began to understand what Paul meant in Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me". This is how he described the experience to me: "God worked the old Wigglesworth-nature out and worked the new Jesus-nature in." (Smith Wigglesworth)

          Blessings,
          Lee
          Paul is talking about dying to the Law, the Old Covenant:

          Galatians 2:19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” e

          He is not talking about the death of his sin nature.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            The two are indeed related, through the cross, the old self is put to death.

            As he grew older, he came to realize that he had to face up to temptation and defeat in his Christian walk. Perhaps his greatest weakness was his temper. He said to himself, "This won't do in a child of God," and he determined to meet God at every opportunity. Setting aside ten days, he presented his body a living sacrifice. He prayed, wept, soaked in the Word, and pleaded the promises. He faced up to the cross until he began to understand what Paul meant in Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me". This is how he described the experience to me: "God worked the old Wigglesworth-nature out and worked the new Jesus-nature in." (Smith Wigglesworth)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Just to clarify: I see the cross as the apex of the self-giving that was present throughout the life of Jesus. As to the 'old self' if it refers to each of our old selves, we are shown the way but death to self only comes when we actually and continually 'take up our cross.'

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Yes.


              Amen! A good statement.


              Well, there is truth in other religions, but the Christian claim is different, that Jesus is the truth (John 14:6).

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Again, I accept that (Jesus is the Truth) as a Christian but others in different religions would say the same thing about their holiest man.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                Paul is talking about dying to the Law, the Old Covenant:

                Galatians 2:19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” e

                He is not talking about the death of his sin nature.
                Well, note what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say "i have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live to the law." No, he say "I myself [the Greek is emphatic[ no longer live." So this is a step beyond dying to the law, this is "a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ..." (Col 2:11).

                "Spiritual 'Agags' have to be hewed to pieces, not changed into Israelites (I Sam. 15:32). Regeneration renews my soul, imparts power to resist and conquer sin; but does not rid me of the presence of depravity in the heart. This is done by a work of removal or destruction. It is called a circumcision, that is, a cutting out and off of something within our natures. And again, it is called a baptism of fire. We all know what fire does--that it consumes." (B. Carradine)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by thormas View Post
                  Just to clarify: I see the cross as the apex of the self-giving that was present throughout the life of Jesus. As to the 'old self' if it refers to each of our old selves, we are shown the way but death to self only comes when we actually and continually 'take up our cross.'
                  Indeed.

                  Again, I accept that (Jesus is the Truth) as a Christian but others in different religions would say the same thing about their holiest man.
                  I don't think so! Buddha showed a way, Mohammed was a prophet, but Jesus claimed not only to be speaking the truth, he claimed he was the truth, which is an extraordinary claim.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

                    I don't think so! Buddha showed a way, Mohammed was a prophet, but Jesus claimed not only to be speaking the truth, he claimed he was the truth, which is an extraordinary claim.

                    There are differences but as you noted Buddha showed a way, then we have Moses, Lao-Tzu, Confucius, the holy men/books of the Hindus, the great theologians of Islam, etc.

                    Plus, we would have to look at the gospels accounts. As many, myself included, accept that the gospels are not histories or biographies but theologies or the religious belief about Jesus and the author's perspective. For example if we are talking about John's gospel some 60 - 70 years after Jesus and the highest Christology of the 4, I would have to ask what did Jesus actually say (and can we ever know)?

                    Regardless, it is Jesus who speaks most clearly to me...........a Christian.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Well, note what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say "i have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live to the law." No, he say "I myself [the Greek is emphatic[ no longer live."
                      It means that the law which applied to living people no longer applied because it wasn't him who it could target, but Christ who covered him, because he was IN Christ, who had really died.

                      Again, his sin nature did not die. You can understand this if you study what Rest is

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by thormas View Post
                        There are differences but as you noted Buddha showed a way, then we have Moses, Lao-Tzu, Confucius, the holy men/books of the Hindus, the great theologians of Islam, etc.
                        Yes, but they didn't claim to be the way.

                        Plus, we would have to look at the gospels accounts. As many, myself included, accept that the gospels are not histories or biographies but theologies or the religious belief about Jesus and the author's perspective. For example if we are talking about John's gospel some 60 - 70 years after Jesus and the highest Christology of the 4, I would have to ask what did Jesus actually say (and can we ever know)?
                        I believe the gospels are historical, and they all have a high Christology:

                        “ 'Greetings,' he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him." (Mt 28:9)

                        Regardless, it is Jesus who speaks most clearly to me...........a Christian.
                        Amen...

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                          It means that the law which applied to living people no longer applied because it wasn't him who it could target, but Christ who covered him, because he was IN Christ, who had really died.
                          "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live" is a statement about me. The law does not apply, but that is not what this is saying.

                          Again, his sin nature did not die. You can understand this if you study what Rest is
                          The sin nature must die, or else we will die with it:

                          "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Ro 8:13)

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Yes, but they didn't claim to be the way.


                            I believe the gospels are historical, and they all have a high Christology:

                            “ 'Greetings,' he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him." (Mt 28:9)


                            Amen...

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            I guess we could ask if that is a statement from the historical Jesus or a theological insight by the evangelist. However, simply because another does not say it (if indeed it was said by Jesus) it does not mean that he/she is not part of the same way.

                            Respectfully, we differ on the historicity of the gospels and on their Christologies.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live" is a statement about me. The law does not apply, but that is not what this is saying.
                              The text is very clear. It says Paul died to the law, not that his sin nature died:

                              Galatians 2:19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

                              The sin nature must die, or else we will die with it:

                              "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Ro 8:13)
                              ​​​​
                              God planned a way for His followers to live, by being united with Him. Adam was walking with God everyday in the Garden, but when he was separated from God, left the Garden, by eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he died spiritually. God made a plan to restore humanity's unity with Him. Whoever trusted Him to be successful in His plan, and proved that trust was real by passing a test, entered a Rest, a state where they could again be united with Him. Abraham passed this test, but the text said he, and others like him, never received what was promised, because Jesus had not been sent yet:

                              Hebrews 11:39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

                              What Abraham did was he put to death the sins of his body: he overcame the temptation to be selfish. When God commanded him to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, he did not avoid giving up that which was the most precious thing in his life. By doing this he was able to live, receive eternal life. However, this type of life came to him only when Jesus was sent, so that he became eternally alive only together with us, with all those who have believed in Jesus.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                                The text is very clear. It says Paul died to the law, not that his sin nature died:

                                Galatians 2:19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.



                                ​​​​
                                God planned a way for His followers to live, by being united with Him. Adam was walking with God everyday in the Garden, but when he was separated from God, left the Garden, by eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he died spiritually. God made a plan to restore humanity's unity with Him. Whoever trusted Him to be successful in His plan, and proved that trust was real by passing a test, entered a Rest, a state where they could again be united with Him. Abraham passed this test, but the text said he, and others like him, never received what was promised, because Jesus had not been sent yet:

                                Hebrews 11:39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

                                What Abraham did was he put to death the sins of his body: he overcame the temptation to be selfish. When God commanded him to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, he did not avoid giving up that which was the most precious thing in his life. By doing this he was able to live, receive eternal life. However, this type of life came to him only when Jesus was sent, so that he became eternally alive only together with us, with all those who have believed in Jesus.
                                There is no test, although I can see why you say there is. However if John is right, if God is Love, then love - by its very nature, by the very nature of God - is a pure gift, given freely: it is not earned, it is not a reward for anything, there is no test to pass. Love is given out of the generosity of the Giver and if one accepts the gift that is love then they must use it and to use the gift of love is to be loving ........as was the Christ (even unto death). And it is in loving that one has abundant life.

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