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  • #46
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

    And I don't believe those apart from Christ have free will:

    "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (John 8:34)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    if there is free will then all human being have free will. I agree that sin or self-centeredness makes us a slave or keeps us in bondage (properly understood). However, real freedom results from making the right decision: if one chooses 'the way' be it presented by Jesus or others, then they are becoming free by simply embracing Being/Love.

    Note: if those 'apart from Christ' do not have free will then they cannot be culpable for their sins and there is no need for forgiveness or salvation.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by thormas View Post
      if there is free will then all human being have free will. I agree that sin or self-centeredness makes us a slave or keeps us in bondage (properly understood). However, real freedom results from making the right decision: if one chooses 'the way' be it presented by Jesus or others, then they are becoming free by simply embracing Being/Love.


      Note: if those 'apart from Christ' do not have free will then they cannot be culpable for their sins and there is no need for forgiveness or salvation.

      Again, Jesus is not talking about freedom from wrong moral response. He is talking about the status they chose: slave or son. Those who followed Moses were slaves, whilst those who followed Him were sons, His brothers.


      Hebrews 3:5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


      John 8:34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.



      Why is it better, freer, to be in the House Jesus made, rather than the House Moses made? Because the House, Rest, Land, People of God, New Man in Christ that Jesus made was cleansed forever, making it possible for those in the House to be in God’s presence:


      Quote
      We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


      https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/




      Matthew 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.


      John 17:33“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


      John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

      Last edited by footwasher; 09-30-2020, 11:13 AM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post


        Again, Jesus is not talking about freedom from wrong moral response. He is talking about the status they chose: slave or son. Those who followed Moses were slaves, whilst those who followed Him were sons, His brothers.


        Hebrews 3:5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


        John 8:34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.



        Why is it better, freer, to be in the House Jesus made, rather than the House Moses made? Because the House, Rest, Land, People of God, New Man in Christ that Jesus made was cleansed forever, making it possible for those in the House to be in God’s presence:


        Quote
        We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


        https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/




        Matthew 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.


        John 17:33“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


        John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
        If one chooses to repent and prepare for the Kingdom they chose sonship, if not they have chosen slavery. So it does seem to be about the ultimate moral choice for good, for God.

        The one who follows Moses is not a "slave to sin??" Matthew depicts Jesus ad the new (and greater) Moses. And - this gets us into an age old dialogue of faith and acts - the man/woman in Christ is not cleansed forever; s/he is a finite being and must wake each tomorrow and choose to live in God's presence as son/daughter. If they do not do it, it is not done.
        Last edited by thormas; 09-30-2020, 11:30 AM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by thormas View Post

          If one chooses to repent and prepare for the Kingdom they chose sonship, if not they have chosen slavery. So it does seem to be about the ultimate moral choice for good, for God.

          The one who follows Moses is not a "slave to sin??" Matthew depicts Jesus ad the new (and greater) Moses. And - this gets us into an age old dialogue of faith and acts - the man/woman in Christ is not cleansed forever; s/he is a finite being and must wake each tomorrow and choose to live in God's presence as son/daughter. If they do not do it, it is not done.
          The fault of the Jews: they do not want to abandon the Old Covenant. Being observant while in the Old Covenant brought Israel into the Promised Land, but it was only a type, a foreshadowing of the House of the Body of Christ. Only by entering the real Rest will people be in the presence of God and be able to be blessings to the world.

          Hebrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            The fault of the Jews: they do not want to abandon the Old Covenant. Being observant while in the Old Covenant brought Israel into the Promised Land, but it was only a type, a foreshadowing of the House of the Body of Christ. Only by entering the real Rest will people be in the presence of God and be able to be blessings to the world.

            Hebrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
            Yeow! The fault of the Jews? You do understand why the gospels contained a less flattering view of Judaism and the Jews as time when on in their communities, right? It doesn't mean that the Jews killed Jesus, it doesn't mean that the Jews were no longer in covenant, it doesn't mean that the Jews no longer had/have a relationship with God. The good Jew, like the good Christian, the good Muslim, the good agnostic and the good atheist are all 'in the presence of God.'

            "It is not the one who says Lord, Lord but the one who does the will not the Father" - and that will is to Love. Love is Love is God. There is One Way but there are many paths along the One.
            Last edited by thormas; 09-30-2020, 02:43 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by thormas View Post

              Yeow! The fault of the Jews? You do understand why the gospels contained a less flattering view of Judaism and the Jews as time when on in their communities, right? It doesn't mean that the Jews killed Jesus, it doesn't mean that the Jews were no longer in covenant, it doesn't mean that the Jews no longer had/have a relationship with God. The good Jew, like the good Christian, the good Muslim, the good agnostic and the good atheist are all 'in the presence of God.'

              "It is not the one who says Lord, Lord but the one who does the will not the Father" - and that will is to Love. Love is Love is God. There is One Way but there are many paths along the One.
              Interesting. I suppose you have a monopoly on what the will of the Father is? Do tell. Of course this section of the Forum requires you to put forward views that are broadly within "evangelical" doctrine, so proposing that Islam and Judaism are evangelical is a bit of a stretch and will prolly get you moved to the Comparative religion section...
              Last edited by footwasher; 09-30-2020, 02:51 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                Interesting. I suppose you have a monopoly on what the will of the Father is? Do tell.
                Have you not heard, do you not know? "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment......." And he answered: Love..............love God and love your neighbor.

                If you do one, you have done them both for to love God, to truly love God, you must love your neighbor. Jesus the Jew told the Jews which was the greatest commandment. Do you think that no Jew loves God and his neighbor? If they do, if any do............there is the presence of God/Love.

                As the 'footwasher' this should be obvious.
                Last edited by thormas; 09-30-2020, 02:58 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by thormas View Post

                  Have you not heard, do you not know? "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment......." And he answered: Love..............love God and love your neighbor.

                  If you do one, you have done them both for to love God, to truly love God, you must love your neighbor. Jesus the Jew told the Jews which was the greatest commandment. Do you think that no Jew loves God and his neighbor? If they do, if any do............there is the presence of God/Love.

                  As the 'footwasher' this should be obvious.
                  So how do we love our neighbour?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    The best answer has always been agape - the love which is a compassionate concern for the other simply because they are. Such love is evident in the gospel stories of Jesus.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by thormas View Post

                      if there is free will then all human being have free will.
                      Well, why is that?

                      I agree that sin or self-centeredness makes us a slave or keeps us in bondage (properly understood). However, real freedom results from making the right decision: if one chooses 'the way' be it presented by Jesus or others, then they are becoming free by simply embracing Being/Love.
                      So sinners are self-centered, and not free, and thus they don't have free will. And only Jesus can set us free: "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8)

                      Note: if those 'apart from Christ' do not have free will then they cannot be culpable for their sins and there is no need for forgiveness or salvation.
                      But the Bible teaches both, that those who sin are slaves to sin, and also that they are indeed culpable, and in need of forgiveness.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Well, why is that?


                        So sinners are self-centered, and not free, and thus they don't have free will. And only Jesus can set us free: "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8)


                        But the Bible teaches both, that those who sin are slaves to sin, and also that they are indeed culpable, and in need of forgiveness.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Because they all share the same nature.
                        Sin is selfishness or self-centeredness and in a way it can be said that it enslaves one or binds them up. And only with repentance and metanoia. i.e. 'becoming a new man or woman' does one become free from bondage and is free to move forward. The sinner has fee will and chooses sin and the repentant sinner, chooses against sin and is free 'to be' a son of God. I would agree that the man or woman who chooses selfishness or sin is, in that moment, not free to Live. For example the prodigal was not truly free when he turned from the Father but once he turned back he was free to live fully in and with the Father. However we would say that he exercised his free will both times.
                        In the Christian tradition, it is Jesus who sets us free but any who turn from selfishness to selflessness (Love or God - Gospel of John) is made (becomes) free. None can do this unless they are first loved which again is God, so none can be free to be fully human without God.

                        Apart from Christ: this was in response to your statement that such people did not have free will. If one does not have free will then there is no culpability, one cannot be blamed. As an example, if someone kidnaps a family member and demand that you do X then it is done with our free will compromised and to the degree that it is, to that same degree we are without blame.

                        However I still agree that one in sin is not free to be (fully human, fully a child of the Father) but still retains free will. Of course we could also consider the condition of original sin which I understand as a culture and a world steeped in selfishness into which we are born that predates us.


                        p.s. hello from Cary, NC
                        Last edited by thormas; 09-30-2020, 06:31 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by thormas View Post
                          The best answer has always been agape - the love which is a compassionate concern for the other simply because they are. Such love is evident in the gospel stories of Jesus.
                          John 6:26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”



                          If you read the passage carefully, you will see that Jesus did not want His work to be understood as welfare work. They were meant to highlight the presence of God with Him to confirm the truth of the claim that God could bring His People into a state where they would always be in His presence, called Rest. This work He called bread, meaning it fed the trust of those who wanted to have enough faith to pass a test that would bring into Rest, the state that would empower the believer to be raised up every time he or she picked up a cross. Causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to repent, have a change of mindset, from serving selfishness to serving God.


                          Joshua 2:8
                          Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof,
                          and said to the men, “I know that the L
                          ORD
                          has given you the land, and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you.
                          “For we have heard how the L
                          ORD
                          dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed.
                          “When we heard
                          it,
                          our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.


                          John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

                          People who have entered Rest are special, God prepares work for them to do, creates disasters and hidden secrets, calamities and darkness, for them to solve, to highlight the presence of God with that person:

                          John 9:3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
                          Last edited by footwasher; 09-30-2020, 10:37 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                            John 6:26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”



                            If you read the passage carefully, you will see that Jesus did not want His work to be understood as welfare work. They were meant to highlight the presence of God with Him to confirm the truth of the claim that God could bring His People into a state where they would always be in His presence, called Rest. This work He called bread, meaning it fed the trust of those who wanted to have enough faith to pass a test that would bring into Rest, the state that would empower the believer to be raised up every time he or she picked up a cross. Causing people like Rahab and Nicodemus to repent, have a change of mindset, from serving selfishness to serving God.


                            Joshua 2:8
                            Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof,
                            and said to the men, “I know that the L
                            ORD
                            has given you the land, and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you.
                            “For we have heard how the L
                            ORD
                            dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed.
                            “When we heard
                            it,
                            our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.


                            John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

                            People who have entered Rest are special, God prepares work for them to do, creates disasters and hidden secrets, calamities and darkness, for them to solve, to highlight the presence of God with that person:

                            John 9:3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
                            Well the welfare work comment is your modern language take on the !st C man, Jesus but I take your point. The presence of God was the reality that the God who is Love was 'present' in Jesus and available to all others.
                            Not sure what you mean by 'a test?' And what do you mean by cross? Are you speaking literally? If not, what is the cross for you?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by thormas View Post

                              Well the welfare work comment is your modern language take on the !st C man, Jesus but I take your point. The presence of God was the reality that the God who is Love was 'present' in Jesus and available to all others.
                              Not sure what you mean by 'a test?' And what do you mean by cross? Are you speaking literally? If not, what is the cross for you?
                              It requires some pre-understanding to grasp what the test is for.

                              God promised Abraham that the world would be blessed through his descendants. Imagine that humanity to be like a wild horse. As long as it hasn’t been tamed, it’s life has no purpose. When tamed , it is useful to its Owner, for riding, for drawing a carriage, for many uses. In turn, the creature is assured protection from hunger, thirst, illness and harsh environments. How is humanity subdued? We see that Rahab and Nicodemus were turned from not being useful to God to serving God, when they saw the effect of God’s presence in Joshua and Jesus respectively. This is the Way. God prepared problems and ignorance, then empowered those He indwelt with the ability to solve the problems and dispel the darkness. Those who witnessed the great works were motivated to serve God so they would have a purposeful life, to gather God’s sheep.

                              Isaiah 45:7I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

                              John 9:3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.


                              However, not all repented, changed their mindset:

                              1 Corinthians 10:3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

                              Matthew 11:21"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.


                              So the sequence is people are accepted into a group, the process called justification, that receives the edifying revelations of the Holy Spirit when they believe, say they trust God to be present with them always, certified by baptism:

                              Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

                              They are included in another group, by a process called called sanctification, being perfected, entering Rest, that is, empowered to be blessings to the world with the ability to solve problems and explain difficult matters, to pick up a cross and be raised up, drawing those who see these great works to God. This is when they prove what they say, that they trust God to be present with them always, certified by entering Rest:

                              Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

                              We see that Abraham remembered God’s great works in protecting him and his family from danger at the hands of Pharoah. He used the experience to build up his faith, so that when he was tested in being commanded to sacrifice Isaac, he believed God would return Isaac back to him.

                              Unlike Israel, who forgot her deliverance from Pharoah, allowed her fear to grow instead, so that when she was tested, she failed and could not enter Rest, the ability to be a blessing to the world.

                              Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.


                              So today if you hear His voice...be ready to prove you trust God, so that you can lay down your life and demonstrate God is with you when you are raised up, which is the greatest form of love, laying down your life for your fellow human being.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 10-01-2020, 02:16 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I get what your saying but I think it all has to be explained in a way that will actually speak to a 21st C audience........and I say this as someone who was a theology teacher in the 20th C and saw the same need and addressed it. Ideas like God causing problems so we can solve them, the need for great works to convict us, God indwelling or God empowering people? Guys named Rahab and Nicodemus - who cares about these guys? What is justification, how does it work? What do you mean by the Holy Spirit, what do you mean by revelation and on and on and on.

                                These are not my questions so don't provide further explanations. I get it. But this is a foreign language for many living today and using terms that you take as gospel truth - we have to stretch our language and take great pains and make efforts to let it 'make sense' and speak to people with a 21st C worldview. Very few do this or have the ability/interest to do this. As a chairperson I had to observe a priest teaching a class about the Sacraments. I interviewed the seniors afterward and they had no idea what the guy was talking about - and they certainly didn't buy it. It can't be Good news that changes lives if it is not understood.

                                Perhaps at some point we should translate.

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