Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[tabibito]

I knew Matt Slick was inconsistent, but he can at least try to keep himself consistent within the same article.

Give the bloke a break - the article is more than two sentences long.

[foudroyant]

He points out the obvious as well...nowhere does any passage teach prayers are to be given "to" the saints.

[foudroyant]

I look forward to the response to the question I asked in Post #386.

[tabibito]

HelpsStrongsλατρεύω; future λατρεύσω; 1 aorist ἐλάτρευσα; (λάτρις a hireling, Latinlatro in Ennius and Plautus; λάτρον hire); in Greek writings a. to serve for hire;

b. universally, to serve, minister to, either gods or men, and used alike of slaves and of freemen; in the N. T. to render religious service or homage, to worship

BDAGλατρεύω fut. λατρεύσω; 1 aor. ἐλάτρευσα (trag. et al. in var. senses, ‘work for pay, be in servitude, render cultic service’;

[foudroyant]

a. The ministry denoted by latreuein is always offered to God (or to heathen gods...R. 1:25...Ac. 7:42) (TDNT 4:62, latreuo, Strathmann).
b. In Biblical Greek always refers to the service of the true God or of heathen deities (The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, WM.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, Michigan, copyright 1982, page 371).
c. As used in the New Testament, the word latreuo denotes actions that are always evaluated positively when God is the grammatical object and negatively with reference to any other object (Karen H. Jobes in Moises Silva's "Biblical Words and Their Meaning: An Introduction to Lexical Semantics", copyright 1994 revised and expanded edition from 1983, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, page 203).


Still waiting for an answer to my question in Post #386.

[tabibito]

a. The ministry denoted by latreuein is always offered to God (or to heathen gods...R. 1:25...Ac. 7:42) (TDNT 4:62, latreuo, Strathmann).
b. In Biblical Greek always refers to the service of the true God or of heathen deities (The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, WM.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, Michigan, copyright 1982, page 371).
c. As used in the New Testament, the word latreuo denotes actions that are always evaluated positively when God is the grammatical object and negatively with reference to any other object (Karen H. Jobes in Moises Silva's "Biblical Words and Their Meaning: An Introduction to Lexical Semantics", copyright 1994 revised and expanded edition from 1983, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, page 203).

None of these define or even mention prayer in connection with λατρευω.
I'm too polite to give the only appropriate response to post 386

[foudroyant]

I wasn't sure of your point of your previous post. In Post #386 prayer is used in connection with latreuo (see TDNT).
-
Too polite? No, too stupid -you just can't answer the question in Post #386.

[TimelessTheist]

Focus on the minors and notr the majors again.

Nothing says the prayers are directed "to" the saints.

The prayers 'to' the Saints are all formal requests for them to intercede prayer on our behalf. We aren't actually praying to them, in the same way we pray to God.

[foudroyant]

Where does it teach they are interceding?
How do you not pray to them in the same way you pray to God?

Barnes: In Revelation 8:3, an angel is represented as having a golden censer: “And there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." The representation there undoubtedly is, that the angel is employed in presenting the prayers of the saints which were offered on earth before the throne. See the notes on that passage. It is most natural to interpret the passage before us in the same way. The allusion is clearly to the temple service, and to the fact that incense was offered by the priest in the temple itself at the time that prayer was offered by the people in the courts of the temple. See Luke 1:9-10. The idea here is, therefore, that the representatives of the church in heaven - the elders - spoken of as “priests” Revelation 5:10, are described as officiating in the temple above in behalf of the church still below, and as offering incense while the church is engaged in prayer.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=65&ch=5

[TimelessTheist]

Where does it teach they are interceding?

See my previous post.

How do you not pray to them in the same way you pray to God?

The prayers to them are formal requests for the Saints to intercede prayer on our behalf, it's not for the purpose of worship that prayers like "Our Father" are.

It is most natural to interpret the passage before us in the same way.

Eh, no. While it contains similar imagery, these events, by Barnes' own admission, took place 'before' the throne, so they both cannot be talking about the same thing here.

Revelation 5:10, are described as officiating in the temple above in behalf of the church still below, and as offering incense while the church is engaged in prayer.

Oh, I see, so when it says they're offering "The prayers of the Saints" what it 'really' means is that they're just offering plain incense at the same time the Church below is. Except

[tabibito]

Ignoring Foudroyant's flagrant breaches of civility.

Timeless Theist: What is the rationale for praying to the saints? The Lord's prayer would seem to make it superfluous at best.

[TimelessTheist]

Ignoring Foudroyant's flagrant breaches of civility.

Timeless Theist: What is the rationale for praying to the saints? The Lord's prayer would seem to make it superfluous at best.

Both to show reverance to them (NOT worshiping them. Showing respect to someone isn't worship) and to have them intercede to God on our behalf on important matters. Of course, no praying to Saints is ever required, with the exception of the reverence of Mary and Michael The Archangel during Mass, as that's Church tradition, though it's by no means against doctrine for the Church to write a Missal that has no mention of Mary, or any of the other Saints, in it.

[Spartacus]

Ignoring Foudroyant's flagrant breaches of civility.

Timeless Theist: What is the rationale for praying to the saints? The Lord's prayer would seem to make it superfluous at best.

I intended to post something detailed about this today, but I got lazy. Apologies.

[tabibito]

Both to show reverance to them (NOT worshiping them. Showing respect to someone isn't worship) and to have them intercede to God on our behalf on important matters. Of course, no praying to Saints is ever required, with the exception of the reverence of Mary and Michael The Archangel during Mass, as that's Church tradition, though it's by no means against doctrine for the Church to write a Missal that has no mention of Mary, or any of the other Saints, in it.

OK - you're defining reverence as respect. Respect and admiration is a good thing, but it can be shown without direct prayer. Still, I can't find any direct evidence that would prohibit the practice, and certainly Foudroyant has failed to produce anything from either from the Bible or his alternate scriptures.
On balance, I see it as skating thin ice, and without any compelling reason to do so, but without sufficient evidence to oppose it (to date.)

[TimelessTheist]

OK - you're defining reverence as respect. Respect and admiration is a good thing, but it can be shown without direct prayer. Still, I can't find any direct evidence that would prohibit the practice, and certainly Foudroyant has failed to produce anything from either from the Bible or his alternate scriptures.
On balance, I see it as skating thin ice, and without any compelling reason to do so, but without sufficient evidence to oppose it (to date.)

Well, actually, there's a be-all, end-all verse supporting it in 2 Maccabees...but Protestants deny that said book is historically valid, so that would pretty much be pointless.