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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

    Roman Catholics attempt to say that it is ok to pray to Mary because it is not worshiping her. That is, only God is to receive latria while Mary can receive hyperdulia.
    The Bible doesn't allow for this false dichotomy that Catholics attempt to create.

    1. Prayer is worship
    a. Isaiah 44:17 - And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. (KJV)
    By praying to this false god the person is worshiping this false god.

    b. Matthew 21:13 - And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. (KJV)
    Isaiah 56:7 - Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (KJV)
    Keil and Delitzsch: (Isaiah 56:7) But here the temple is called “the house of prayer,” from the prayer which is the soul of all worship.
    http://www.studylight.org/com/kdo/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=56
    Barnes: (Isaiah 56:7) In my house of prayer - In the temple - here called the house of prayer. The language here is all derived from the worship of the Jews, though the meaning evidently is, that under the new dispensation, all nations would be admitted to the privileges of his people, and that the appropriate services of religion which they would offer would be acceptable to God.
    http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=56

    c. Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (KJV)
    One of the ways Anna offered worship (the Greek word here is latreuo) to God is by praying to Him.
    1.TDNT: The Ministry of Prayer: Elsewhere the references of latreuein is to the general ministry of prayer and praise, e.g., adoration in Mt. 4:10; Rev. 7:15; 22:3, prayer and supplication in Lk. 2:37; Acts 26:7. (TDNT 4:62, latreuo, Strathmann).

    d. 2 Timothy 1:3 - I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day. (KJV)
    2 Timothy 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. (KJV)
    The Greek word for "serve" is latreuo and since to call on the name of the Lord (which means praying to the Lord) is the same as worshiping the Lord we once again see that praying is worshiping.
    TDNT: Calling on the Lord out of a pure heart (2 Tm. 2:22) is the same as worship with pure conscience (2Tm. 1:3). (7:918, sunoida, Maurer).



    2. Roman Catholics will often claim that asking Mary to pray for you is much like asking a friend to pray for you. You do not think your friend is God anymore than the Roman Catholics think Mary is God.
    This analogy doesn't work because many times prayers are silent. Imagine having millions upon millions of people asking you to pray for them at the same time but they only think it within their hearts. You would not be able to understand all of the hearts behind such requests. That would take omniscience - and only God is omniscient. So by praying to Mary Roman Catholics (whether they realize it or not) are ascribing knowledge to her that is reserved for God alone.

    a. NIDNTT: The kidneys (Heb. kelayot; Gk. nephros, only in plur.; in the NT only Rev. 2:23, citing Jer. 11:20) are frequently mentioned in close connection with the heart. They are - in the metaphorical sense - the seat of the deepest spiritual emotions and motives (Ps. 7:9[10]; 26:2; Jer. 17:10; 20:12; cf. 1 Sam. 24:5[6]; 25:31; leb conscience), so secret that men cannot fathom them. Only God is able to search and test them (2:181-182, Heart, T. Sorg).
    b. NIDNTT: kardiognwstes is unknown to secular Gk. and to the LXX, and occurs in the NT only in Acts 1:24 and 15:8 and later in patristic writings. It describes God as the knower of hearts. The fact that God sees, tests and searches the hidden depths of the human heart is commonly stated in both the OT and the NT (1 Sam. 16:7; Jer. 11:20; 17:9f.; Lk. 16:15; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 2:23). This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognwstes (2:183, Heart, T. Sorg).
    c. TDNT: The designation of God as ho kardiognwstes, "the One who knows the heart," expresses in a single term (Ac. 1:24; 15:8) something which is familiar to both the NT and OT piety (Lk. 16:15; R. 8:27; 1 Th. 2:4; Rev. 2:23 of Christ, cf. 1 Bas. 16:7; 3 Bas. 8:39; 1 Par. 28:9; Psalm 7:9; Ier. 11:20; 17:10; Sir. 42:18 ff.), namely that the omniscient God knows the innermost being of every man where the decision is made either for Him or against Him (3:613, kardiognwstes, Behm).
    d. Danker: knower of hearts, one who knows the hearts, of God Ac 1:24; 15:8 (on these pass. s. JBauer, BZ 32, 88, 114-117); Hm 4, 3, 4. - M-M. DELG s.v. gignwskw. TW (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, kardiognwstes, page 509).
    ---> TW stands for the TDNT - Theologisches Worterbuch zum NT, ed. GKittel (d. 1948)
    e. EDNT: On the one hand God is "in heaven" (Matt 6:9f. par.; 7:11; 11:25) and strictly distinguishable from everything that is of this world. On the other hand, however, he is present (Matt 6:1-18; Rev 1:8) and omniscient (Matt 6:8, 32; Acts 1:24; 15:8) (2:141, theos, G. Schneider).
    f. Keil and Delitzsch: The reins are the seat of the emotions, just as the heart is the seat of the thoughts and feelings. Reins and heart lie naked before God - a description of the only kardiognwstes, which is repeated in Jer. 11.20, 20.12, Apoc. 2.23 (Commentary on the Old Testament, Psalms, Volume 5, C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch, page 144).
    g. Mounce: While people may be deceived by their own hearts and the deceitful hearts of others (Jas. 1:26), and while sin and evil reside in the human heart (Rom. 1:21; Jas. 3:14), before the Lord the heart is an open book. He knows our hearts (Lk. 9:47; 16:15), tests them (1Thess. 2:4), searches them (Rom. 8:27; Rev. 2:23), strengthens them (1 Thess. 3:13), and reveals their motives (1 Cor. 4:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Heart, page 328).
    h. Joel B. Greene: The Lord is addressed as "the one who knows the heart" (kardiognwsta). This is an expression used only twice in the New Testament (here and in Acts 15:8), but that points to a concept almost proverbial in biblical literature - that is, that God is omniscient (Into God's Presence: Prayer in the New Testament, Editor: Richard N. Longenecker:; From Chapter 9, Persevering Together in Prayer: The Significance of Prayer in the Acts of the Apostles by Joel B. Greene, page 190).

    3. The fact that there are passages in the Bible which demonstrate the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer/worship (which means He is omniscient) is powerful testimony that He is God. Many heretics deny His Deity so Roman Catholics and others who claim Mary can be prayed to (yes, that is worship) really discredit who the Lord Jesus is.
    a. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).
    b. A.H. Leitch: Christ possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (Acts 1:24) (2:94, deity of Christ, The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible).
    c. EDNT: On the one hand God is "in heaven" (Matt 6:9f. par.; 7:11; 11:25) and strictly distinguishable from everything that is of this world. On the other hand, however, he is present (Matt 6:1-18; Rev 1:8) and omniscient (Matt 6:8, 32; Acts 1:24; 15:8) (2:141, theos, G. Schneider).
    Last edited by foudroyant; 04-07-2014, 09:59 AM.

  • #2
    I am grateful Mary is at peace and not having to be troubled by us pestering her constantly. No one in the NT asked a departed saint to pray for them. One would think Paul would have prayed to Stephen to pray for him.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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    • #3
      Amen to that!

      Even those who buried Stephen made loud lamentation over him...not "to" him.

      Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. (Acts 8:2, NASB)

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      • #4
        Jews worship David in 1 Chronicles 29:20 to the complaint of nobody.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
          Jews worship David in 1 Chronicles 29:20 to the complaint of nobody.
          Won't work.

          See Post 10
          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...6126#post26126

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          • #6
            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            That post has you arguing that David wasn't worshiped in the same way God was. The argument sounds rather... familiar.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #7
              We owe the saints in general dulia (honouring their sanctity and seeking their favours) and Mary hyperdulia (dulia in the highest form), only God do we owe latria (from whom, by whom and to whom all glory ultimate belongs. All the glory the saints have derive ultimately from him, so by honouring them by extension we honour him as the source). There's nothing wrong with this distinction, and there's nothing in the Bible that teaches anything against it. We do owe honour to people who are superior to us in station, and we need an appropriate word to express that. Since the saints in heaven are alive, near God and are considered fully righteous and unblemished (no stain of sin left, they're as white as snow), there's nothing wrong with asking them to pray for us.

              None of the biblical passages given show that every prayer said is a worship, the first is an edict against worshipping false idols as well as praying to them. Since statues or icons of Mary are neither considered to be her, or to be God, and they're considered merely to be focal points and to help the person focus in prayer Catholics aren't guilty of that.

              Yes one of the way that Anna offered worship was to pray to God, likely by singing the psalms of David, however since Catholics consider that kind of prayer to be a form of latria there's nothing here against Catholic practice.

              In fact everytime you bring up an example which is about how humans worship, or ought to worship God, then you're talking about latria.

              The fact that you recognise that the Bible indicates different means of recognising office and authority, as well as holiness of a person exists in the bible, without it being equivalent with the kind of worship we owe to God alone indicates that the Bible isn't unfriendly to this concept. To me its just part and parcel of a universe with a hierarchy.

              If an Angel came into the room in visible form I'd fall onto my knees, I wouldn't dare to shake hands with him.

              I am grateful Mary is at peace and not having to be troubled by us pestering her constantly.
              Somehow I don't think Heaven will include the licence to grow lazy, or a cessation of loving people. Even if you don't have a body you can still pray, and if your love was made perfect, wouldn't you pray for the people on Earth? If the angels or God made you aware of someone asking you to pray to God for specific issue, wouldn't you then do that (or pray for something better than what the person asked for)?

              Don't try to think about it in earthly terms. You won't grow tired of praying, it won't detract from your love of God, since you're completely healed and sinless it would be effortless.

              It depends on course on what your expectations of the afterlife is, whether you believe in Soul Sleep and so forth.
              Last edited by Leonhard; 04-03-2014, 03:08 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                That post has you arguing that David wasn't worshiped in the same way God was. The argument sounds rather... familiar.
                The Hebrew word used there doesn't always refer to worship but obeisance. (Genesis 33:3)

                And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother. (KJV)

                Why couldn't the people be offering obeisance to David while affording worship to God?
                Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 06:54 AM.

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                • #9
                  Leonard,

                  Concerning Isaiah 44:17 I am pointing out that this passage makes zero distinction between praying to an idol and worshiping it.

                  Anna offering prayers is one of the ways she offered latreuo. Thus there is no distinction.

                  An angel from God would not be able to understand the totality of millions of silent prayers offered to him.

                  Also, 2 Timothy 1:3 and 2 Timothy 2:22 demonstrates once again that prayer is worship (latreuo).
                  Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 06:53 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    Concerning Isaiah 44:17 I am pointing out that this passage makes zero distinction between praying to an idol and worshiping it.

                    Anna offering prayers is one of the ways she offered latreuo. Thus there is no distinction.
                    Both are still non sequitors as both are examples of worship of God, and not indictments against appropriately honouring holy people or seeking their favours.

                    An angel from God would not be able to understand the totality of millions of silent prayers offered to him.
                    Care to demonstrate that?

                    Also, 2 Timothy 1:3 and 2 Timothy 2:22 demonstrates once again that prayer is worship (latreuo).
                    No they don't. In the first quote Paul reassures a community that he gives thanks to God when he remembers them in prayer, and in the other he exhorts people to 'call on the Lord from a pure heart'. Nothing here about what Catholics doing being unlawful, and nothing here about prayer being equivalent with worship.

                    You need to either find a quote that makes it illegal to seek the favour of departed Saints or one that clearly says that all prayers (of any kind) is equivalent to the kind of worship owed to God alone - you won't find that in the OT or the NT - Or you need to document teachings that contradict it... say that people in Heaven aren't aware of anything (Soul Sleep), or that nobody is in Heaven, etc... However I don't believe in Soul Sleep, and I don't see that there's anything else to prevent anyone from praying to them, or be reprimanded for that.

                    The Bible doesn't condemn the practice.
                    Last edited by Leonhard; 04-03-2014, 08:46 AM.

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                    • #11
                      And now Foud points to his heart-knowing/omniscience equivocation again. Its flaws have been pointed out to him as often as he's brought it up, but it hasn't stopped him from repeating it over and over and over and over...
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Both are still non sequitors as both are examples of worship of God, and not indictments against appropriately honouring holy people or seeking their favours.



                        Care to demonstrate that?



                        No they don't. In the first quote Paul reassures a community that he gives thanks to God when he remembers them in prayer, and in the other he exhorts people to 'call on the Lord from a pure heart'. Nothing here about what Catholics doing being unlawful, and nothing here about prayer being equivalent with worship. You need to either find a quote that makes it illegal to seek the favour of departed Saints. You won't find that in the OT or the NT, as they're silent on the subject. Or you need to document teachings that contradict it... say that people in Heaven aren't aware of anything (Soul Sleep), or that nobody is in Heaven, etc... However I don't believe in Soul Sleep, and I don't see that there's anything else to prevent anyone from praying to them, or be reprimanded for that.

                        The Bible doesn't condemn the practice.
                        1. Once again Isaiah 44:17 is an example of prayer being worship. There are zero passages where prayer as such is used in the Bible where worship is not taking place.
                        2. If an angel from God understood the totality of millions of silent prayers offered to him that would mean he is omniscient (See Part 2 in the OP).
                        3. I already cited a very good source that teaches calling on the name of the Lord is the same thing as rendering latreuo to the Lord.
                        4. Luke 2:37 clearly demonstrates that one of the way Anna rendered latreuw unto God was by prayers. I'd like to see a passage where anyone else is to receive prayers in the way Anna offered.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                          And now Foud points to his heart-knowing/omniscience equivocation again. Its flaws have been pointed out to him as often as he's brought it up, but it hasn't stopped him from repeating it over and over and over and over...
                          And now Sparty repeats an assertion without proof.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                            And now Sparty repeats an assertion without proof.
                            In order for Mary to hear the prayers of everyone who prays to her, she would have to know more than any normal human could possibly know. However, this is a finite increase in her knowledge and perception, not an infinite one.
                            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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                            • #15
                              She would also have to be aware of the hearts behind the silent words of these prayers.....or can people pray to her and trick her in that they were not sincere?

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