Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[tabibito]

of course they will deny it but as we have seen in Post #431:

They pray to them which is the same thing as "serving" (latreuo) them.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

ya ya - sure sure - drinking wine is the same thing as taking communion.

[One Bad Pig]

The first I listed or the first that appears in Luke's writings?

The first that appears in Luke's writings is fine.

[foudroyant]

This was done by Mr. Tab in Post #430.

The evidence that follows his post shows that praying to the Lord is serving (latreuo) the Lord.

And this is due only unto God.

[tabibito]

"What kind of service is it that takes place in the heart"? And they answered their own question: "It is prayer!" (b. Ta' anith 2a). (Studies in Paul, Exegetical and Theological, page 33).

If you do pray to someone other than God, quite clearly that has nothing to do with rendering service to God. It is self evident then, that not all prayer is service to God.

After God's intervention in a matter for which one has prayed, a prayer of thanksgiving to a saint for his intercession might be appropriate, but a prayer of thanksgiving for his intervention would not. That prayer would be wholly inappropriate even if it was addressed to a living saint, as we see in the reactions of Paul and Barnabas when people tried to make sacrifice to them. Nor can their reactions be attributed solely to the fact that the people concerned had mistaken them for gods. When a man was healed, even though by Jesus himself, the crowds glorified God, not Jesus. It is appropriate to thank a worker for his assistance in a matter, but greater thanks are due to the one who sent that worker ...
So, unless you can present a clear cut example of something that shows the Church of Rome to either promote direct praise of saints for the performance of miracles or attribute miracles to saints, (which in fact would be worship or veneration) you're only making assertions. It is a matter of put up or shut up. The evidence you need to support your case won't come from the treatises of outsiders, but from the practices of Rome herself. You would need to examine those practices: a good place to start would be the hymns and psalms addressed to saints.

Without presenting actual evidence, you are no more than a malicious gossip - and if you repeat the allegations of others who make unsupported allegations, declaring them true, you are a malicious gossip circulating malicious gossip.

In short - attributing a miracle to a saint is one thing, and unapproved. Thanking a saint (living or dead) for exercising the God given authority to perform miracles is a different matter altogether - all the praise for the performance of a miracle should be given to God, from whom ultimately the power and authority to perform that miracle devolves.

And - oh yes: that prayer can be addressed to people other than God is attested by the book of psalms itself - not all psalms are addressed to God.

[One Bad Pig]

This was done by Mr. Tab in Post #430.

The evidence that follows his post shows that praying to the Lord is serving (latreuo) the Lord.

And this is due only unto God.

No, the interpretation following his post asserts that prayer to the Lord is service of the heart to the Lord. It completely fails to address the possibility of prayer directed elsewhere. Further, when did Mr. Longenecker (or the rabbis, for that matter) become authoritative? I'm looking for Biblical authority, not interpretation. What you've proffered falls short of the standard you assert.

[foudroyant]

Of course, your qualifications dwarf those of Longnecker and a whole host of others. Not.

Prayer is never directed elsewhere with it being ok.
Again, cite the passage where it is. See Post #212.

Let me help you out pig boy......no where.

Now get back to wallowing in your theological pig pen where you belong.

[foudroyant]

If you do pray to someone other than God, quite clearly that has nothing to do with rendering service to God.

If you do worship someone other than God, quite clearly that has nothing to do with rendering service to God.

Your assertion is asinine and moronic. Clue up.

[foudroyant]

Prayer: God alone is able to hear and to supply their every want. (Watson's Biblical & Theological Dictionary)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1281

Hey, what about Mary? Nope.


Prayer: in the Bible involves the dialogue between God and people, especially His covenant partners. (Holman Bible Dictionary, Randy Hatchett)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=5087

Hey, what about Mary? Nope.


Prayer: Is converse with God; the intercourse of the soul with God, not in contemplation or meditation, but in direct address to him. (Easton Bible Dictionary)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=2998

Hey, what about Mary? Figure it out yet idiots???? Stop being so stupid.



Dictionary after dictionary as posted here and elsewhere proves your worship of Mary is heretical.

Tootles cupcakes..............

[tabibito]

Of course, your qualifications dwarf those of Longnecker and a whole host of others. Not.

You vest a lot of faith in your host, Rome and Constantinople vest a lot of faith in their hosts - some members of those hosts being common to both.

Your host against theirs - which to choose?

[Spartacus]

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Whatever good we as Christians achieve over the course of our lives is not due to our own ability or skill, but simply cooperation with God's grace. Revering a saint, therefore, is at once a recognition of God's grace working through them and of their cooperation with that grace. To fail to recognize the ways in which God has worked in and through his humble and unworthy servants is to fail to recognize the workings of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, failing to hold the saints in reverence (dulia) is failing to give due praise to God (latria).

As for asking the saints to intercede on our behalf, we should not be surprised to find that God continues to draw the saints in Heaven closer to Himself in much the same way He did as they lived: by having them act as the conduits of His grace. By drawing the saints into His love for us here on Earth, God brings the saints into a closer relationship with Himself even as they draw closer to us. The Saints do not and cannot do this independently.

They are made to want to hear our prayers because they have been drawn up more fully into the Divine Life-- that is, the eternal exchange of love in the Trinity. They share in God;s love for all humanity because they have been more substantially united with Him. It would make no sense for those who are closer to God than we are to love less than we do.

They are made able to hear our prayers and to intercede on our behalf by the power of God, not because it is necessary for God to have intercessors, but because He uses it as a way to unite his holy ones to Himself. It is a further opportunity to cooperate with God's grace, to have their wills conformed to His, and so be made more like Him.

That's it, briefly. I had written out a 1000+ word meandering explanation, but I think this will work better-- at least for now.

[foudroyant]

Saints might be able to hear (not fully understand) our prayers but there is no biblical warrant to praying to them.
Not one.

[foudroyant]

You vest a lot of faith in your host, Rome and Constantinople vest a lot of faith in their hosts - some members of those hosts being common to both.

Your host against theirs - which to choose?

Let's compare Greek and Hebrew credentials.
Start with yourself since you put your opinion above all.

[tabibito]

Your host against theirs - which to choose?

[foudroyant]

Where are theirs?

[tabibito]

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Whatever good we as Christians achieve over the course of our lives is not due to our own ability or skill, but simply cooperation with God's grace. Revering a saint, therefore, is at once a recognition of God's grace working through them and of their cooperation with that grace. To fail to recognize the ways in which God has worked in and through his humble and unworthy servants is to fail to recognize the workings of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, failing to hold the saints in reverence (dulia) is failing to give due praise to God (latria).

As for asking the saints to intercede on our behalf, we should not be surprised to find that God continues to draw the saints in Heaven closer to Himself in much the same way He did as they lived: by having them act as the conduits of His grace. By drawing the saints into His love for us here on Earth, God brings the saints into a closer relationship with Himself even as they draw closer to us. The Saints do not and cannot do this independently.

They are made to want to hear our prayers because they have been drawn up more fully into the Divine Life-- that is, the eternal exchange of love in the Trinity. They share in God;s love for all humanity because they have been more substantially united with Him. It would make no sense for those who are closer to God than we are to love less than we do.

They are made able to hear our prayers and to intercede on our behalf by the power of God, not because it is necessary for God to have intercessors, but because He uses it as a way to unite his holy ones to Himself. It is a further opportunity to cooperate with God's grace, to have their wills conformed to His, and so be made more like Him.

That's it, briefly. I had written out a 1000+ word meandering explanation, but I think this will work better-- at least for now.

Provided that the practice meets with the theory, I see no point upon which a justifiable challenge might be mounted. Nonetheless, the bronze snake of Moses would seem to be illustrative of the possible risks in the prayers, and particularly where icons are used. The line is exceedingly thin, but as Foudroyant has pointed out, the Bible is wholly silent on the matter of prayers to the saints. Aside from his mangled conflation of prayer, worship, and service ... and his incapacity to determine the difference between definition and exposition - he can't support his allegations.