Does the Lord's Prayer contradict sola fide?

[footwasher]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xxxii.html
The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians

Chapter XXXII.—We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.130 For from him131 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.132 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”133 All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page5.html

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Conclusion - So we see that Clement's quote (the one quote that I could find) that you took was totally out of context. When he made the quote that you noted, we see that surrounding it before and after was the necessity of works done in God's grace for salvation. He was in the quote contrasting a self-righteous holiness to the holiness that must be done in God's grace. The one that did not justify, is when one tries to justify himself, relies on his own wisdom, holiness, etc. One indeed who works on one's own power is condemned by Trent, canon 1, justification. That is what Clement was condemning, and saying that does not avail before God. He specifically speaks of justification by works in Chapter 30. Notice though that those works are done in grace, as he specifically says in that same chapter. In Chapter 31 he says Abraham was blessed (and the context is speaking of justification), because of the act of offering Isaac on the altar. In chapter 34, Clement says that in justification it is requisite to our actions to be well-doing. He gives us two choices. To be a faithful servant, we labor (in grace of course) and we get the reward of heaven. However, if we are a slothful servant, and don't labor for God, we are sent to hell. Clement is obviously referring to Mt. 24:45-51. The slothful servant gets what? weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is hell. Why, because he didn't work. Then Clement says, he forewarns us he renders accoring to our works (Rom. 2:6, Mt. 16:27). If faith alone, he wouldn't forewarn us (because our justification would be absolutely assured), and we would not fear damnation. In Chapter 48 he speaks of those can attain salvation only those who direct their ways in holiness. Thus, that direction in holiness is a cause of justification. In Chapter 50 he notes that we must keep the commandments and that love (not faith alone) forgives sins. Clement notes that works are what must be judged before God to achieve salvation, and not even a hint of forensic justification, or Sola Fide.

[Obsidian]

Are you saying that the Roman Church does not teach that we get to heaven by "works which we have wrought in holiness of heart"?

[footwasher]

Are you saying that the Roman Church does not teach that we get to heaven by "works which we have wrought in holiness of heart"?

We receive a favorable judgement according to the works done through grace whilst in this body:

2 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.



Romans 2 :4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

[Obsidian]

Are you gonna answer the question?

[footwasher]

Are you gonna answer the question?

It's answered here:

Romans 2:5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

[Bill the Cat]

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page5.html

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Conclusion - So we see that Clement's quote (the one quote that I could find) that you took was totally out of context. When he made the quote that you noted, we see that surrounding it before and after was the necessity of works done in God's grace for salvation.

Whoever this chump is who wrote this blog entry is completely full of it. The "surrounding context" is provided 2 chapters earlier where Clement says "Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness" http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xxx.html

Clement has provided the context of the chapter I cited as NOT what must be done to GET saved, but what must be done BY THE SAVED. The entire letter is to an already saved church and mainly deals with how to behave now that they are saved. A few places, such as chapter vii discuss how salvation was attained, which shows repentance through faith.

He was in the quote contrasting a self-righteous holiness to the holiness that must be done in God's grace.

In the chapter I quoted, he was contrasting those who sought salvation through their own works and those who God justified through faith as from all times before.

The one that did not justify, is when one tries to justify himself, relies on his own wisdom, holiness, etc. One indeed who works on one's own power is condemned by Trent, canon 1, justification. That is what Clement was condemning, and saying that does not avail before God. He specifically speaks of justification by works in Chapter 30.

No he doesn't. He speaks of post-salvation works, describing them that should do them as "the portion of God".

Notice though that those works are done in grace, as he specifically says in that same chapter.

Which are post-salvation

In Chapter 31 he says Abraham was blessed (and the context is speaking of justification), because of the act of offering Isaac on the altar.

No he didn't. He said "was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith". It was the FAITH of Abraham that wrought the works of righteousness and truth.

In chapter 34, Clement says that in justification it is requisite to our actions to be well-doing. He gives us two choices. To be a faithful servant, we labor (in grace of course) and we get the reward of heaven.

No. Not even close. Clement is not referring to salvation, but the rewards of the righteous. He says "The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face." We do not work to get our reward. We work because we are good servants, and HE rewards that. And again, this is talking to the already saved, not those seeking justification.

However, if we are a slothful servant, and don't labor for God, we are sent to hell.

NOWHERE does Clement say that in chapter xxxiv!! In fact, he says just the opposite! Clement says "He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this,141 that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work." Again, this is said to "The portion of God" that Clement has been writing to.

Clement is obviously referring to Mt. 24:45-51.

No. He is referring to Revelation 22:12

The slothful servant gets what? weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is hell. Why, because he didn't work.

No! Because He held what was most precious to the master (in this case, the Gospel) and did nothing with it. The parable is not saying that the servant who does not spread the Gospel will go to hell, it was an exaggeration in a parable of the gravity of not spreading the good news of salvation.

Then Clement says, he forewarns us he renders accoring to our works (Rom. 2:6, Mt. 16:27).

Again, the believer's rewards for works of righteousness are not the same as salvation.

If faith alone, he wouldn't forewarn us (because our justification would be absolutely assured), and we would not fear damnation.

Considering Clement is not talking about damnation, this is nonsense in context. it is also a ridiculously comical misunderstanding of the doctrine of sola fide...

In Chapter 48 he speaks of those can attain salvation only those who direct their ways in holiness.

No he doesn't. He speaks of reconciling with their brothers and returning to their former state of brotherly love and that holiness is the only way to do so. He says that love is the "gate to righteousness"

Thus, that direction in holiness is a cause of justification.

No. It is a cause of sanctification and is directed by repentance through faith in Him.

In Chapter 50 he notes that we must keep the commandments and that love (not faith alone) forgives sins.

Another atrocious misunderstanding of sola fide. And another twisting of Clement's writing. He says "Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us". Clement AGAIN is talking to the beloved of God - the already saved, and that through our continued obedience to God's love, His love will continue to forgive our sins.

Clement notes that works are what must be judged before God to achieve salvation, and not even a hint of forensic justification, or Sola Fide.

No he doesn't. He says that faith is what causes good works, and that faith is what saved everyone through history who was considered "the portion of God". Whoever this person is, they need some basic exegetical reading lessons because dang...

[Obsidian]

It's answered here

No, it really isn't. But your dodginess is noted.

[footwasher]

No, it really isn't. But your dodginess is noted.

Here's a recap of salvation and the role of grace in salvation, as taught by the different denominations:


Quote

Catholics

Divine help comes in Christ through the law that guides and the grace that sustains, by which souls work out their "own salvation with fear and trembling."[21] That divine help, that grace, is a favour, a free and undeserved gift from God which helps us to respond to his invitation to enter relationship.[22]


Orthodox

Orthodox theology teaches prevenient grace, meaning that God makes the first movement toward man, and that salvation is impossible from our own will alone. However, man is endowed with free will, and an individual can either accept or reject the grace of God. Thus an individual must cooperate with God's grace to be saved, though he can claim no credit of his own, as any progress he makes is possible only by the grace of God.

The Orthodox Church further teaches that the person has salvation not only by his good deeds, but also by his patient suffering of various griefs, illnesses, misfortunes, and failures (Luke 16:19-31, Mark 8:31-38, Romans 6:3-11, Hebrews 12:1-3, Galatians 6:14).[42]


Protestant

The Protestant Christian perspective on salvation is that no one can merit the grace of God by performing rituals, good works, asceticism or meditation, because grace is the result of God's initiative without any regard whatsoever to the one initiating the works. Broadly speaking, Protestants hold to the five solas of the Reformation, which declare that salvation is attained by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone for the Glory of God alone as told in Scripture alone.

Some Protestants understand this to mean that God saves solely by grace and that works follow as a necessary consequence of saving grace (see Lordship salvation). Others rigidly believe that salvation is accomplished by faith alone without any reference to works whatsoever, including the works that may follow salvation (see Free Grace theology).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvati...ty)#cite_ref-7

Romans 2:6 disproves the last.

[footwasher]

Whoever this chump is who wrote this blog entry is completely full of it. The "surrounding context" is provided 2 chapters earlier where Clement says "Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness" http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xxx.html

Clement has provided the context of the chapter I cited as NOT what must be done to GET saved, but what must be done BY THE SAVED. The entire letter is to an already saved church and mainly deals with how to behave now that they are saved. A few places, such as chapter vii discuss how salvation was attained, which shows repentance through faith.

In the chapter I quoted, he was contrasting those who sought salvation through their own works and those who God justified through faith as from all times before.

No he doesn't. He speaks of post-salvation works, describing them that should do them as "the portion of God".

Which are post-salvation

No he didn't. He said "was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith". It was the FAITH of Abraham that wrought the works of righteousness and truth.

No. Not even close. Clement is not referring to salvation, but the rewards of the righteous. He says "The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face." We do not work to get our reward. We work because we are good servants, and HE rewards that. And again, this is talking to the already saved, not those seeking justification.

NOWHERE does Clement say that in chapter xxxiv!! In fact, he says just the opposite! Clement says "He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this,141 that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work." Again, this is said to "The portion of God" that Clement has been writing to.

No. He is referring to Revelation 22:12

No! Because He held what was most precious to the master (in this case, the Gospel) and did nothing with it. The parable is not saying that the servant who does not spread the Gospel will go to hell, it was an exaggeration in a parable of the gravity of not spreading the good news of salvation.

Again, the believer's rewards for works of righteousness are not the same as salvation.

Considering Clement is not talking about damnation, this is nonsense in context. it is also a ridiculously comical misunderstanding of the doctrine of sola fide...

No he doesn't. He speaks of reconciling with their brothers and returning to their former state of brotherly love and that holiness is the only way to do so. He says that love is the "gate to righteousness"

No. It is a cause of sanctification and is directed by repentance through faith in Him.

Another atrocious misunderstanding of sola fide. And another twisting of Clement's writing. He says "Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us". Clement AGAIN is talking to the beloved of God - the already saved, and that through our continued obedience to God's love, His love will continue to forgive our sins.

No he doesn't. He says that faith is what causes good works, and that faith is what saved everyone through history who was considered "the portion of God". Whoever this person is, they need some basic exegetical reading lessons because dang...

Please take into account that we are saved (past), are being saved (present) and will be saved (future).

As soon as we repent, meta noia, change our minds, follow God's plan instead of selfish goals, our spirits are saved, just as Israel was saved when she left Egypt. They never enter the Promised Land, but even the sandals on their feet never wore out, a type of spiritual salvation. Those under twenty did enter the Promised Land, a type of bodily salvation.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...istians/page25

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The view that the body will (automatically) be made alive in the future is not supported Scripturally, in view of the fact that the body is supposed to be made alive in this life. Christ work on the cross led to the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gift enabled the energising of our spirit. We were dead in our sins, but now we are resurrected with Him:

Ephesians 2:4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

However, Paul teaches us to strive for a better resurrection:

Phillipians 3:7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

He is not content to have only his spirit resurrected and already united with Christ's Spirit in heaven , he worked to make alive his body as well:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

IOW, Paul's desire, for himself and for all believers, is to put to death the deeds of the body, by the Spirit, so that all can live, which is only possible by being in Christ.

John 15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless
it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

In between rest in the Promised Land stood the giants, and when Joshua led Israel into battle and put to death those giants, he was able to lead Israel into the Land. But even today, there remains a rest, for if Joshua had been able to give rest to Israel, God would not have through David said that there remains a rest for the People of God.

Now because Jesus destroyed temptation in His body, those who put to death the deeds of the flesh can enter the real rest, the rest available through union with Christ's body.


Today if we hear God's voice, we should not shrink back, as did those who disobeyed, and died, but put to death those giants, and enter rest, in Christ.

Which is a true rest, because it gives rest from temptation, because we are, not in our body of death, but in Christ's sinless body.


Now, now, Clement's letter makes sense, comports well with completion, petfection, maturity, showing the ECF taught that justification was by works accessible through grace.

[Obsidian]

So Clement says that we are not saved by works that we perform in holiness of heart, and you (and the Catholics) say otherwise.

[footwasher]

So Clement says that we are not saved by works that we perform in holiness of heart, and you (and the Catholics) say otherwise.

Why should I contradict Scripture? The Bible reproves people who seek righteousness through their own holiness:


Romans 10:3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.


See, there are three ways of doing works proposed:


Orthodox


Believers are enabled to do good works which are required for making the body live, because what was not possible because of the weakness of the flesh is now possible because of the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Grace is what makes the new covenant different from the old.


Catholic


Ditto



Protestant


Believers need not do good works because faith saves. Belief automatically produces good works. This is problematic, as the article on R C Sproul that I posted showed, here:


http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ristian/page13

[Obsidian]

To say that Catholics do not teach salvation by works done in holiness of heart is idiocy. And the proof of it is that you can't even answer a simple question.

[footwasher]

To say that Catholics do not teach salvation by works done in holiness of heart is idiocy. And the proof of it is that you can't even answer a simple question.

Hey, I'm not Catholic. There are lots of things wrong with their theology, but their salvation doctrine is right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvati...hristianity%29

Catholics
Divine help comes in Christ through the law that guides and the grace that sustains, by which souls work out their "own salvation with fear and trembling."[21] That divine help, that grace, is a favour, a free and undeserved gift from God which helps us to respond to his invitation to enter relationship.[22]

The onus is on you to show that Catholics teach:

"salvation by works done in holiness of heart"...

Even Luther never claimed that salvation comes through faith, but through the presence of Christ in the believer.

What the Reformation did with that idea is a totally different ball game altogether.

Quote
Against a background of extensive agreement Calvin diverges from Luther in ways thatcan be described as narrow but deep, like a small crack that goes a long way down. The crack widens in later versions of the Reformed tradition as well as its offshoots, such as the Baptist andrevivalist traditions. A useful mark by which to locate this widening crack is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. If an American revivalist could ask Luther whether he was a born again(i.e., regenerate) Christian, his answer would surely be: "Of course I'm a born again Christian. I am m baptized."

Someone who gives such an answer does not think a decision for Christ or aconversion experience is necessary in order to be a Christian. It is enough to be baptized as aninfant and then believe what you are taught, for instance, in a catechism. Hence it is notsurprising that there is no revivalist tradition native to Lutheranism, much less to RomanCatholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, all of which teach baptismal regeneration and practice infant baptism. There are particular complexities in the story of the Reformed tradition, whichtypically practices infant baptism but does not teach baptismal regeneration. But beginning withthe Reformed tradition Protestantism has been characterized by a soteriology in which thedecisive moment of passing from death in sin to life in Christ is not baptism but a conversion tofaith that happens once in a lifetime. This is a departure from Luther, based on a fundamental but seldom-noticed divergence on the doctrine of justification. Whereas all agree that one is born again only once in a lifetime (either in baptism or in conversion) for Luther justification is adifferent matter: it is not tied to any single event but occurs as often as a Christian repents andreturns to the power of baptism.

For as we shall see, Luther's doctrine of justification by faithalone takes shape in the context of the Catholic sacrament of penance, where justification occurswhenever true penance does. In this regard Luther is not quite Protestant enough to believe that justification happens only once in life.



https://www.academia.edu/185285/Why_...mental_Promise

[Obsidian]

Catholics
Divine help comes in Christ through the law that guides and the grace that sustains, by which souls work out their "own salvation with fear and trembling."[21] That divine help, that grace, is a favour, a free and undeserved gift from God which helps us to respond to his invitation to enter relationship.[22]

Okay. Well if you think that statement is in agreement with Clement then you are insane. Stay on topic. You are the one who tried to twist the very obvious words that Clement wrote. I am keeping you honest.

[Bill the Cat]

Please take into account that we are saved (past), are being saved (present) and will be saved (future).

I am aware. I am also aware just how Paul used those terms. They are not synonymous.

As soon as we repent, meta noia, change our minds, follow God's plan instead of selfish goals, our spirits are saved, just as Israel was saved when she left Egypt.

In a manner of speaking, yes.

They never enter the Promised Land, but even the sandals on their feet never wore out, a type of spiritual salvation.

Nope. Their sandals not wearing out was a symbol of God's presence in their midst, not of salvation.

Those under twenty did enter the Promised Land, a type of bodily salvation.

Symbolic of our resurrection after we die.

The view that the body will (automatically) be made alive in the future is not supported Scripturally, in view of the fact that the body is supposed to be made alive in this life.

Depends on what you mean by "body". If you are referring to our flesh, then no, it will not be made alive in this lifetime.

Christ work on the cross led to the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gift enabled the energising of our spirit. We were dead in our sins, but now we are resurrected with Him:

But we still possess "the body of death". Our flesh is not alive in Christ until He comes and we are either raised from the dead or changed in an instant.

Ephesians 2:4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

This is a term of honor, not a salvation of our flesh. This is not a "resurrection" of our spirits, since there is only one resurrection to eternal life for the believer and one separate resurrection to eternal damnation for the unbeliever.

[/i]

Now, now, Clement's letter makes sense, comports well with completion, petfection, maturity, showing the ECF taught that justification was by works accessible through grace.

Sorry, no. You ran a giant rabbit trail that did nothing to refute my analysis of Clement. Clement unanimously says that salvation is sola fide and that once salvation is merited to us, we are to do the good works of heaven that God has for us to do in order to receive the rewards of the faithful. Clement in NO WAY taught salvation could be earned by doing works. It is the faith behind those works that saves.