Does the Lord's Prayer contradict sola fide?

[Bill the Cat]

Protestant


Believers need not do good works because faith saves.

This is a complete bastardization of what Protestantism teaches. Believers need not do works to get saved. believers need to do good works because our master requests us to do so, and true love breeds true obedience.

Belief automatically produces good works.

True belief does. But since we still fight our flesh, we fail to do what we ought to do and we do what we ought not do. Paul said the same thing.

[footwasher]

Okay. Well if you think that statement is in agreement with Clement then you are insane. Stay on topic. You are the one who tried to twist the very obvious words that Clement wrote. I am keeping you honest.

You claim that Clement taught a person is justified by faith and not by works. Not true:

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page5.html

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CHAP. XXXIII.--BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.
What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immovable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word(16) into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all,(17) with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him--the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: "Let us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them."[1] Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, "Increase and multiply."(2) We see,(3) then, HOW ALL RIGHTEOUS MEN HAVE BEEN DORNED WITH GOOD WORKS, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and LET US WORK THE WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS with our whole strength.

CHAP. XXXIV.--GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.
The good servant(4) receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, TO RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORK."(5) He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this,(6) that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will.

Preceding this section, Clement also wrote of Rahab's justification:

Chapter 12.-The Rewards of Faith and Hospitality. Rahab.
On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. Chapter 48 says:
Let us therefore, with all haste, put an end to this [state of things]; and let us fall down before the Lord, and beseech Him with tears, that He would mercifully be reconciled to us, and restore us to our former seemly and holy practice of brotherly love. For [such conduct] is the gate of righteousness, which is set open for the attainment of life, as it is written, "Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go in by them, and will praise the Lord: this is the gate of the Lord: the righteous shall enter in by it." Although, therefore, many gates have been set open, yet this gate of righteousness is that gate in Christ by which blessed are all they that have entered in and have directed their way in holiness and righteousness, doing all things without disorder.

Chapter 50 says:
Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us.

[Bill the Cat]

You claim that Clement taught a person is justified by faith and not by works. Not true:

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page5.html

Quote
CHAP. XXXIII.--BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.
What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immovable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word(16) into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all,(17) with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him--the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: "Let us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them."[1] Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, "Increase and multiply."(2) We see,(3) then, HOW ALL RIGHTEOUS MEN HAVE BEEN DORNED WITH GOOD WORKS, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and LET US WORK THE WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS with our whole strength.

CHAP. XXXIV.--GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.
The good servant(4) receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, TO RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORK."(5) He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this,(6) that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will.

Preceding this section, Clement also wrote of Rahab's justification:

Chapter 12.-The Rewards of Faith and Hospitality. Rahab.
On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. Chapter 48 says:
Let us therefore, with all haste, put an end to this [state of things]; and let us fall down before the Lord, and beseech Him with tears, that He would mercifully be reconciled to us, and restore us to our former seemly and holy practice of brotherly love. For [such conduct] is the gate of righteousness, which is set open for the attainment of life, as it is written, "Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go in by them, and will praise the Lord: this is the gate of the Lord: the righteous shall enter in by it." Although, therefore, many gates have been set open, yet this gate of righteousness is that gate in Christ by which blessed are all they that have entered in and have directed their way in holiness and righteousness, doing all things without disorder.

Chapter 50 says:
Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us.

I've addressed the context of EVERY one of those quotes, yet you ignored them and reposted them to Obsidian.

[Obsidian]

Both the Bible and Clement teach that Jesus will reward every man according to his work. This does not teach works salvation, because even Christians who are already saved from eternal damnation by faith still get judged, in various ways, according to their works done in the faith. Hence, the parts that you emboldened do not prove your point.

[footwasher]

I am aware. I am also aware just how Paul used those terms. They are not synonymous.

Paul uses the words justification at many places, when he is actually describing reconciliation, sanctification and glorification. He was speaking with equals, they had common points of reference. Its like when I'm with American friends and I have to keep explaining that when I say "I want to be picked up at 9", it means I want the ride at 9, and I want them to call, when I say "Give me a ring at 9". I dont have to do this double take when I'm with Brit friends.

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Our spirits are saved just as Paul, in one place, delivers a backslider to Satan, so that only his spirit is saved, and delivers a warning, in another place, not to be saved, as through fire, where the body is burned but the spirit is saved.

Nope. Their sandals not wearing out was a symbol of God's presence in their midst, not of salvation.

I believe the spirits of the Israelites were saved. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Grace is God's sending of Christ. Because of the weakness of the flesh, men could never do the works God planned for them to do. Now by the Spirit, the gift Christ's work won for humanity, we can NOW do those works. The land is a type of the new man, Christ's body. Remember, when the king brought in surrogate tenants to occupy the land, God sent lions to kill them, until the king of Assyria sent a Levite to teach them how to worship God. Those who are in Christ must learn how to live in Him, how to offer their unblemished bodies as a living sacrifice. With deeds of the body still present, what you have is a dead body:

http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebook...-law-of-moses/

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We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

Symbolic of our resurrection after we die.

Provided your body was a living sacrifice whilst in this earthly life. It is better to enter the afterlife with an arm missing than to risk losing the whole body to helllfire.

Depends on what you mean by "body". If you are referring to our flesh, then no, it will not be made alive in this lifetime.

See above. Also Wright's article. Paul , the suffering servant, was the epitome of the righteousness of God, through Christ. Giving life to believers, even as death worked in him. Fulfilling Ezekiel 37, speaking words that made dead bones alive.

But we still possess "the body of death". Our flesh is not alive in Christ until He comes and we are either raised from the dead or changed in an instant.

But he thanks Christ for saving him from his body of death! Else there is no difference between the Old Covenant and the New, as noted by Arminian, in his blog, The Romans Clearinghouse.

This is a term of honor, not a salvation of our flesh. This is not a "resurrection" of our spirits, since there is only one resurrection to eternal life for the believer and one separate resurrection to eternal damnation for the unbeliever.

See above, where Paul hands a person over to satan.

Sorry, no. You ran a giant rabbit trail that did nothing to refute my analysis of Clement. Clement unanimously says that salvation is sola fide and that once salvation is merited to us, we are to do the good works of heaven that God has for us to do in order to receive the rewards of the faithful. Clement in NO WAY taught salvation could be earned by doing works. It is the faith behind those works that saves.

See my previous post.

This is an enormous topic, as anything of God can be expected to be, requiring God's help, for both speaker and hearer.

[footwasher]

Both the Bible and Clement teach that Jesus will reward every man according to his work. This does not teach works salvation, because even Christians who are already saved from eternal damnation by faith still get judged, in various ways, according to their works done in the faith. Hence, the parts that you emboldened do not prove your point.

Rahab was saved by her works. I rest my case.

[Bill the Cat]

Rahab was saved by her works. I rest my case.

No she wasn't.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient

[footwasher]

No she wasn't.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient

She welcomed the spies!

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.php

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Now before you re-read various passages on "faith" in this light, bear in mind two things.

First, this does not necessarily mean abandoning personal testimony as a form of witness. Changed lives may be, and often are, appealed to as proofs of the Christian faith, and in our individualistic society which has lost a sense of history (to the point where many people cannot even name our Vice-President), such appeals may actually be better in some contexts than an apologetic for the empty tomb.

Second, note that in very few cases is this form of pistis, as meaning a proof, in view. The meaning does give us a clue as to the nature of other meanings. It is often used as a noun to refer to the Christian "faith" as a set of convictions. In far many more cases the meaning intended is in the sense of faithfulness, or loyalty as owed to one in whom one is embedded for service (in this case, the body of Christ).

[Bill the Cat]

She welcomed the spies!

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.php

Quote
Now before you re-read various passages on "faith" in this light, bear in mind two things.

First, this does not necessarily mean abandoning personal testimony as a form of witness. Changed lives may be, and often are, appealed to as proofs of the Christian faith, and in our individualistic society which has lost a sense of history (to the point where many people cannot even name our Vice-President), such appeals may actually be better in some contexts than an apologetic for the empty tomb.

Second, note that in very few cases is this form of pistis, as meaning a proof, in view. The meaning does give us a clue as to the nature of other meanings. It is often used as a noun to refer to the Christian "faith" as a set of convictions. In far many more cases the meaning intended is in the sense of faithfulness, or loyalty as owed to one in whom one is embedded for service (in this case, the body of Christ).

And that firmly buttresses my claims that there is no such thing as saving faith that do not produce good works. Rahab had faith and as a result, acted on it. the action itself did not save her. The faith behind it did.

[footwasher]

And that firmly buttresses my claims that there is no such thing as saving faith that do not produce good works. Rahab had faith and as a result, acted on it. the action itself did not save her. The faith behind it did.

Judas, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira had faith, demonstrated by their obedience to Christ's command to be baptized. Was their faith genuine, or were they false professors?

[Bill the Cat]

Judas, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira had faith, demonstrated by their obedience to Christ's command to be baptized. Was their faith genuine, or were they false professors?

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Works fail these people. If they are not done in genuine faith, then they do not belong to Him. So, to answer your question, no, their faith was not genuine, despite trying to check a checkbox for the doing of works.

[Obsidian]

Rahab was saved by her works.

Was she saved because she loved God with all her heart, soul, mind, and strength and loved her neighbor as herself? I think not. So once again you are clearly in error.

Judas, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira had faith, demonstrated by their obedience to Christ's command to be baptized.

The Bible specifically teaches that Judas never believed. The others did. You are a fool who doesn't know the Bible. You used to be reasonably smart, before you embraced this wicked heresy you keep promoting. It's pathetic.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

[footwasher]

Rather than staying with your stripped down version of salvation, which when taken in totality of what Scripture teaches is revealed as inadequate, better to believe:

Repentance, turning from selfishness to God. Leads to reconciliation, the presence of God with the believer, indicating his acceptability in God's family. God does not disown His own, as seen by the preservation and provision to the Israelites in the wilderness, even when they did not persevere. His calling and gifts are irrevocable, so Judas, Simon Magus, A&S are saved, but as through fire. If they had repented, they would have been restored. As it is the regeneration of the Spirit only resulted in their spirits sitting with Christ in high places, saved but as through fire.


Obedience, putting to death of the deeds of the body. Leads to sanctification, the blood of Jesus cleansing the believer of all unrighteousness. Triggers the regenerating work of the Spirit resulting in our body living the life required by God in doing the works He prepared for us that we may walk in them. So Peter and John claim that for those who walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses from all unrighteousness.

Perseverance . Leading to glorification. Offering up of our bodies as the acceptable sacrifice towards sharing in what remains of Christ's afflictions, leading to opposition, insults, injury even death. Triggers the regenerating work of the Spirit, resulting in our bodies dying and not dying, but joining Christ in paradise. Stephen was glorified before dying.

========

Look at the orthodox view of salvation, the most coherent, which takes in the evidence from the totality of Scripture, and is obedient to commands to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, and offer our sanctified bodies as acceptable sacrifices through being IN Christ:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_(Christianity)


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Orthodox theology teaches prevenient grace, meaning that God makes the first movement toward man, and that salvation is impossible from our own will alone. However, man is endowed with free will, and an individual can either accept or reject the grace of God. Thus an individual must cooperate with God's grace to be saved, though he can claim no credit of his own, as any progress he makes is possible only by the grace of God.

The Orthodox Church further teaches that the person has salvation not only by his good deeds, but also by his patient suffering of various griefs, illnesses, misfortunes, and failures (Luke 16:19-31, Mark 8:31-38, Romans 6:3-11, Hebrews 12:1-3, Galatians 6:14).[42]



And:


http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becom...hteousness.pdf

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Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.


============


Now look at the Reformed view, which makes nonsensical all the verses that call for the believer to actively put to death the deeds of the body through the Holy Spirit, accept suffering through being IN Christ, this stick figure theology leading to confusion about what role good works play in the life of the believer:


http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1997ii/Wilkin.html

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Dr. R. C. Sproul is a very articulate spokesman for the view that assurance is not certainty. A few years back he described his own struggles with assurance, and in so doing he explained his view of assurance:

There are people in this world who are not saved, but who are convinced that they are. The presence of such people causes genuine Christians to doubt their salvation. After all, we wonder, suppose I am in that category? Suppose I am mistaken about my salvation and am really going to hell? How can I know that I am a real Christian?

A while back I had one of those moments of acute self-awareness that we have from time to time, and suddenly the question hit me: "R.C., what if you are not one of the redeemed? What if your destiny is not heaven after all, but hell?" Let me tell you that I was flooded in my body with a chill that went from my head to the bottom of my spine. I was terrified.

I tried to grab hold of myself. I thought, "Well, it's a good sign that I'm worried about this. Only true Christians really care about salvation." But then I began to take stock of my life, and I looked at my performance. My sins came pouring into my mind, and the more I looked at myself, the worse I felt. I thought, "Maybe it's really true. Maybe I'm not saved after all."

I went to my room and began to read the Bible. On my knees I said, "Well, here I am. I can't point to my obedience. There's nothing I can offer. I can only rely on Your atonement for my sins. I can only throw myself on Your mercy." Even then I knew that some people only flee to the Cross to escape hell, not out of a real turning to God. I could not be sure about my own heart and motivation. Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, "Where else can I go? Only You have the words of eternal life." In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option!

According to this way of thinking, certainty is not an option. The very best option available is "being uncomfortable with Christ".


Are you going to be content with this half baked theology posited by these inertia filled , old fashioned , resistant to change dinosaurs?

[Obsidian]

His calling and gifts are irrevocable, so Judas, Simon Magus, A&S are saved, but as through fire. If they had repented, they would have been restored. As it is the regeneration of the Spirit only resulted in their spirits sitting with Christ in high places, saved but as through fire.

You just got done praising the Catholic Church, but this is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, the Bible makes it clear (as I already showed) that Judas never actually believed.

I can't figure out who the dinosaurs are that you are criticizing. Your post doesn't make sense.

[footwasher]

You just got done praising the Catholic Church, but this is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, the Bible makes it clear (as I already showed) that Judas never actually believed.

I can't figure out who the dinosaurs are that you are criticizing. Your post doesn't make sense.

Please show where the RCC say believers are saved by "performing works from the holiness of their heart".

Judas was like the Israelites, turning from the world and turning to God. Their fault was not continuing in belief, loyalty. They never returned to Egypt. Their salvation was partial, as through fire.

Modern scholars have pointed out Luther's mistake in forming the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Reformed scholars cannot accept the view, as their entire theological development would be shown to be in error.