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Does the Lord's Prayer contradict sola fide?

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  • Does the Lord's Prayer contradict sola fide?

    An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

    I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

    http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    He confuses justification with a) salvation and b) forgiveness.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think it's sort of comical how he thinks that a Catholic focusing on the Lord's Prayer and a sermon on that prayer at a Catholic Church is "too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence". Given the RCC's fixation with these particular verses, I don't see any reason to consider it anything but a probable coincidence...
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        The Lord's prayer was given as an instruction about prayer. The discussion on forgiveness was focused on one's attitude when coming into prayer. Such attitude should be one of reconciliation with our brethren as we also see God's forgiveness.

        Jesus was likely highlighting the tendency of the people to promote divisions (e.g. by being judgmental toward everyone else) yet seeking union with God.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

          I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

          http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html

          If one has faith in Christ for salvation then failing to forgive others is not an option. They compliment, not contradict, one another.

          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

            I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

            http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html
            What Jesus instructed is to be understood as under the Law as opposed to being under grace.
            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

            Comment


            • #7
              Interestingly, no teachings of justification by faith appears in any of the writings by the early church fathers, not even in those of Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John.

              So if the Reformation, which claims to return to the authentic faith of the Scriptures, concludes justification is by faith, why didn’t it appear in these writings? Were they possessing oral traditions that taught something other than Luther’s interpretation? Or did they, even so quickly after the apostles died, deviate from Scripture? And did deviation begin with them? Or with, even earlier, Polycarp?

              Anyhoo, this is the present position:

              Eastern Orthodox: believes the original doctrine was justification by obedience, a view present through out the writings of the ECF:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvati...ty)#cite_ref-7

              Quote
              Moral transformation​[​edit​]
              Main article: ​Moral influence theory of atonement
              The ​moral transformation​ view was the predominant understanding of salvation among ​Christians during the first three centuries AD​,​[8]​[9]​[10]​[11]​[12]​ and continues to be held by some denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox today. In this view, Jesus saved people from sinfulness through his life and teachings, thus transforming their character to become righteous. This salvation is seen as undeserved, since God graciously sent Jesus to save people when they were unrighteous and did not in any way deserve such a favour. In the moral transformation paradigm, a person is saved from sinfulness by faithfully following the teachings of Jesus, and the example he set of how to live. Consequently, a person becomes righteous in God's sight, and can expect a positive ​final judgment by​ God. Perfection is not required, and mistakes are forgiven after ​repentance​. In this view, ​Jesus' crucifixion​ is understood primarily as a ​martyrdom​.​[13]


              Hey, that was Tercel, our old TWebbian!

              RCC: believes justification is through obedience enabled by grace received only through the sacraments dispensed by the the RCC. They admit to being guilty of the wrong practice selling of indulgences, Luther’s charge against them.

              Reformed: teaches justification is through belief in the fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer through faith.

              The latter conclusion reached at through a convoluted thought process, beginning with Erasmus’s translation of the Septuagint resulting in the Vulgate, to Melanchthon’s take on a certain verse to Luther's approval of it. How much time do we get to unpack the whole thing?
              Last edited by footwasher; 02-26-2015, 03:18 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                ... RCC: believes justification is through obedience enabled by grace received only through the sacraments dispensed by the the RCC. They admit to being guilty of the wrong practice selling of indulgences, Luther’s charge against them.

                Reformed: teaches justification is through belief in the fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer through faith.

                The latter conclusion reached at through a convoluted thought process, beginning with Erasmus’s translation of the Septuagint resulting in the Vulgate, to Melanchthon’s take on a certain verse to Luther's approval of it. How much time do we get to unpack the whole thing?
                Very interesting post, with which I largely agree, except for a couple of points. Roman Catholics do not believe that grace is ONLY available through the sacraments dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church.

                And, Erasmus' translation of the Septuagint???
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Very interesting post, with which I largely agree, except for a couple of points. Roman Catholics do not believe that grace is ONLY available through the sacraments dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church.

                  And, Erasmus' translation of the Septuagint???
                  You are right it was Erasmus’ translation of the New Testament where at Romans 4:3 he used imputatum instead of the Vulgate's reputatum that changed the course of theological history!


                  creditit aut Abraham deo et imputatum est ei ad iustitiam

                  Serves me right for posting before checking. When I got back, the editing window had closed.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 02-26-2015, 08:13 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Lord's prayer assumes that the person doing the praying is already saved. That is why it starts out with the phrase "Our Father." The reference to forgiveness is talking about God's dealings among his children who are already within the kingdom.

                    Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
                    Last edited by Obsidian; 02-26-2015, 08:57 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Salvation is to obedience to grace without works. Obedience to obtain merit is disobedience.
                      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Salvation is to obedience to grace without works. Obedience to obtain merit is disobedience.
                        I admire the redneck sensibility, the hillbilly loyalty (Hatfield-McCoy) that pervades these discussions, and can even understand it.

                        Back in my home town, at a reunion, in a discussion about food(!), with a blowout barbecue roaring in the background, I had to rattle the cage of some guests, sniffing at their unbalanced food habits. Surprisingly my brother backed me up, but afterwards, afterwards, he gave me what fer.

                        "Don't rile the guests", he roared.
                        "But you backed me"! I bleated.
                        "That's cos you're family!" he roared back!

                        It's great to be loyal, even better to avoid division, but really, you want to be loyal to Scripture.

                        These are the instruction manuals, useful lifechanging guides, towards a favorable judgment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Salvation is to obedience to grace without works. Obedience to obtain merit is disobedience.
                          ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:4, 5.

                          ". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.


                          ". . . to testify the gospel of the grace of God. . . ." -- Acts 20:17-27.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                            I admire the redneck sensibility, the hillbilly loyalty (Hatfield-McCoy) that pervades these discussions, and can even understand it. .
                            I do not admire anyone who uses those terms as anything other than affectionate...
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:4, 5.

                              ". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.


                              ". . . to testify the gospel of the grace of God. . . ." -- Acts 20:17-27.
                              How is it that the Early Church Fathers do not teach salvation by faith alone, but rather, salvation by obedience to Christ's words, including the command, the inatruction, the law, to forgive?

                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              I do not admire anyone who uses those terms as anything other than affectionate...
                              I assure you, these I consider great qualities, for the right situations!

                              Comment

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