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Five Factions in Evangelicalism

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  • Five Factions in Evangelicalism

    Patheos blog post. It's specifically about "higher education," as in evangelical educational institutions, but the general concept may be more broadly relevant.

    Faction 1: Conservative culture warriors -- Trumpy "Christian Nationalists." Complementarian. (My summary)

    Faction 2: Color-blind (but anti-nationalist) conservatives -- Never Trumper conservatives. Complementarian. (My summary)

    Faction 3: Racially progressive complementarians -- From this point on, I have so far barely skimmed, so can't summarize

    Faction 4: Gender egalitarians

    Faction 5: LGBTQ+ advocates

    Here are the comments I posted there, to which as yet there have been no replies:


    So where do those of us who are two-time Trump voters who believe Scripture teaches gender egalitarianism fit in? I have quite a few friends in this camp.

    I'm a two-time Trump voter, and will vote for him again if he's on the ballot. I think the Never-Trumpers are dolts. I am willing to accept the views of people like Shelby Steele and Carol Swain regarding CRT. I do not believe Scripture is "affirming" of LGBT practices.

    But I am persuaded Scripture teaches full equality of men and women, with equal authority and responsibility in the home, and no distinction in permissible "roles" in the Church.

    -----------------

    Also, if someone thinks there would be value in moving or copying this topic to a venue open to participation by unbelievers, I have no objection.
    Last edited by NorrinRadd; 04-13-2022, 12:59 AM.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

  • #2
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Patheos blog post. It's specifically about "higher education," as in evangelical educational institutions, but the general concept may be more broadly relevant.

    Faction 1: Conservative culture warriors -- Trumpy "Christian Nationalists." Complementarian. (My summary)

    Faction 2: Color-blind (but anti-nationalist) conservatives -- Never Trumper conservatives. Complementarian. (My summary)

    Faction 3: Racially progressive complementarians -- From this point on, I have so far barely skimmed, so can't summarize

    Faction 4: Gender egalitarians

    Faction 5: LGBTQ+ advocates

    Here are the comments I posted there, to which as yet there have been no replies:


    So where do those of us who are two-time Trump voters who believe Scripture teaches gender egalitarianism fit in? I have quite a few friends in this camp.

    I'm a two-time Trump voter, and will vote for him again if he's on the ballot. I think the Never-Trumpers are dolts. I am willing to accept the views of people like Shelby Steele and Carol Swain regarding CRT. I do not believe Scripture is "affirming" of LGBT practices.

    But I am persuaded Scripture teaches full equality of men and women, with equal authority and responsibility in the home, and no distinction in permissible "roles" in the Church.

    -----------------

    Also, if someone thinks there would be value in moving or copying this topic to a venue open to participation by unbelievers, I have no objection.
    Faction 1. Very few people interested in politics, or in general, have the same interest in hashing out the women-in-ministry debate that Christians on theology discussion groups do. Donald Trump appointed a female pastor (Paula White) as a White House advisor, with no corresponding lack of support from supporters.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      Patheos blog post. It's specifically about "higher education," as in evangelical educational institutions, but the general concept may be more broadly relevant.

      Faction 1: Conservative culture warriors -- Trumpy "Christian Nationalists." Complementarian. (My summary)

      Faction 2: Color-blind (but anti-nationalist) conservatives -- Never Trumper conservatives. Complementarian. (My summary)

      Faction 3: Racially progressive complementarians -- From this point on, I have so far barely skimmed, so can't summarize

      Faction 4: Gender egalitarians

      Faction 5: LGBTQ+ advocates

      Here are the comments I posted there, to which as yet there have been no replies:


      So where do those of us who are two-time Trump voters who believe Scripture teaches gender egalitarianism fit in? I have quite a few friends in this camp.

      I'm a two-time Trump voter, and will vote for him again if he's on the ballot. I think the Never-Trumpers are dolts. I am willing to accept the views of people like Shelby Steele and Carol Swain regarding CRT. I do not believe Scripture is "affirming" of LGBT practices.

      But I am persuaded Scripture teaches full equality of men and women, with equal authority and responsibility in the home, and no distinction in permissible "roles" in the Church.

      -----------------

      Also, if someone thinks there would be value in moving or copying this topic to a venue open to participation by unbelievers, I have no objection.
      I battle to give a full amen to any of the above. If you are making the Bible the final authority then it must stand every test. I have bolded the part I take most issue with.

      The Bible says women are the weaker vessel.
      The Bible says women must not have authority over men in the church.

      These are simple clear instructions not needing interpretation. How do you interpret these verses? Here is a very good article I found by John Piper, not that it is needed as the Bible is easy to understand in this regard.

      ​​​​​​​https://www.desiringgod.org/intervie...-weaker-vessel

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Esther View Post

        I battle to give a full amen to any of the above. If you are making the Bible the final authority then it must stand every test. I have bolded the part I take most issue with.

        The Bible says women are the weaker vessel.
        The Bible says women must not have authority over men in the church.

        These are simple clear instructions not needing interpretation. How do you interpret these verses? Here is a very good article I found by John Piper, not that it is needed as the Bible is easy to understand in this regard.

        ​​​​​​​https://www.desiringgod.org/intervie...-weaker-vessel
        The raw reading gives rise to pit-falls that can't be circumvented. Applying the admonition as you assert it should be would result in a woman being required to obey her husband's command to do things that are not permitted for any believer. Furthermore, Paul names a woman apostle. Pity about that.

        In point of fact 1 Peter 3:7 makes the same requirement of husbands that is made of wives, though not with the same rationale.
        Last edited by tabibito; 04-13-2022, 02:12 PM.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          The raw reading gives rise to pit-falls that can't be circumvented. Applying the admonition as you assert it should be would result in a woman being required to obey her husband's command to do things that are not permitted for any believer.
          The Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel. It is not an admonition but a matter of fact. Did you read John Piper's article?

          Furthermore, Paul names a woman apostle. Pity about that.
          Do you have a chapter and verse? Even still, a women apostle does not automatically make her less of a weaker vessel or give her authority over men.

          In point of fact 1 Peter 3:7 makes the same requirement of husbands that is made of wives, though not with the same rationale.
          Yes, still this scripture does not cancel the weaker vessel part or the not to have authority over men part.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Esther View Post

            The Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel. It is not an admonition but a matter of fact. Did you read John Piper's article?
            The Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel yes - and on balance women are not as strong as men. However, there are plenty of women who are stronger than most men, so it is only an on balance thing. But all that is a mere aside. The "weaker vessel" bit does not negate Peter's admonition to husbands that they should have the same attitude toward their wives that wives should have toward their husbands.

            Do you have a chapter and verse? Even still, a women apostle does not automatically make her less of a weaker vessel or give her authority over men.
            Romans 16:7 - and even Augustine acknowledged the fact. You will find many translations and commentaries that pretend it is not so.

            Deborah was in a position to command Barak - does that give you no hint? An apostle is an apostle, there are no degrees of rank within apostleship.

            Point of fact - whether or not there are passages commanding that women be subordinate to men, God never bothered to obey the command.

            Yes, still this scripture does not cancel the weaker vessel part or the not to have authority over men part.
            Are you really going to claim that a woman must obey a husband who demands that she prostitute herself? or that a woman must not act to prevent a man from sinning or proclaiming false doctrine?
            Last edited by tabibito; 04-13-2022, 02:55 PM.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              The Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel yes - and on balance women are not as strong as men. However, there are plenty of women who are stronger than most men, so it is only an on balance thing. But all that is a mere aside. The "weaker vessel" bit does not negate Peter's admonition to husbands that they should have the same attitude toward their wives that wives should have toward their husbands.
              You are adding to the weaker vessel verse and giving your understanding when none is required.

              When the Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel I am sure it is not only in a physical sense to make the husband aware that that she will not be able to win in an arm wrestling contest.


              Romans 16:7 - and even Augustine acknowledged the fact. You will find many translations and commentaries that pretend it is not so.
              Romans 16:7:Greet Andronicus and [d]Junias, my kinsmen and [once] my fellow prisoners, who are held in high esteem [e]in the estimation of the apostles, and who were [believers] in Christ before me.

              Being held in high esteem in the estimation of the apostles does not make a person an apostle.


              Deborah was in a position to command Barak - does that give you no hint? An apostle is an apostle, there are no degrees of rank within apostleship.

              Point of fact - whether or there are passages commanding that women be subordinate to men, God never bothered to obey the command.
              The Bible says women are not to have authority over men in the church.

              Deborah unless a time traveller and stealth operator is not a NT example or pattern.

              Subordination between husbands and wives is a one to another issue.


              [Are you really going to claim that a woman must obey a husband who demands that she prostitute herself? or that a woman must not act to prevent a man from sinning or proclaiming false doctrine?
              This is just silly of course and being the weaker vessel I feel sheepish for you!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Esther View Post

                Romans 16:7:Greet Andronicus and [d]Junias, my kinsmen and [once] my fellow prisoners, who are held in high esteem [e]in the estimation of the apostles, and who were [believers] in Christ before me.

                Being held in high esteem in the estimation of the apostles does not make a person an apostle.
                That is not how the Koine Greek states it, nor does the Koine Greek present the name as Junias. According to the Koine Greek, she was an outstanding apostle.
                The translators who claimed that Junia was Junias gave up on arguing that case after 70 years (until then they were quite happy to translate the rest properly), and then changed the passage to read that she was considered noteworthy by the apostles.

                The Bible says women are not to have authority over men in the church.
                1 Timothy 2: 9-15 makes no mention of "in the church" nor could an argument be made that a woman was to dress "modestly" only within the church. The pericope is all of a piece, so church cannot be inferred.

                The Bible says, by your understanding, that a woman must neither teach nor have authority over a man.

                Deborah unless a time traveller and stealth operator is not a NT example or pattern.
                Not even in the Old Testament was a woman prevented from having command over a man; how much less so in the New. For the first 300 years and more of its existence, the church had women in leadership roles. During that time, the Biblical injunctions were never interpreted in the way that you want them to be.

                Subordination between husbands and wives is a one to another issue.
                Peter says it is mutual.

                This is just silly of course and being the weaker vessel I feel sheepish for you!
                In other words, you are not willing to admit that your interpretation doesn't work in the real world.

                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Peter says it is mutual.

                  As does Paul in Ephesians 5:21.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                    As does Paul in Ephesians 5:21.
                    Just so, and somewhat more clearly, but Colossians 3 doesn't.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 04-13-2022, 04:08 PM.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Just so, and somewhat more clearly, but Colossians 3 doesn't.
                      Right. In general, I like the "Biblical Theology" approach of letting each text speak for itself as much as is practical. In this case, given that the two epistles are contemporaneous, by the same author, to sister churches in Asia, I'm comfortable letting the more extensive and detailed one shed light on the closely similar passage in the more abbreviated one.

                      And that's assuming the one really is addressed to Ephesus, rather than being a non-specific circular for the whole region, which might make it even *more* relevant as an interpretive guide.
                      Last edited by NorrinRadd; 04-14-2022, 03:04 AM.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Esther View Post

                        I battle to give a full amen to any of the above. If you are making the Bible the final authority then it must stand every test. I have bolded the part I take most issue with.

                        The Bible says women are the weaker vessel.
                        The Bible says women must not have authority over men in the church.

                        These are simple clear instructions not needing interpretation. How do you interpret these verses? Here is a very good article I found by John Piper, not that it is needed as the Bible is easy to understand in this regard.

                        ​​​​​​​https://www.desiringgod.org/intervie...-weaker-vessel
                        Hi Esther.

                        I haven't read Piper's article yet, but I'll get to it.

                        Regardless of how he explains "weaker vessel," he's going to have to do some work to overcome what I see as the context that begins around the middle of the previous chapter. They are being told to behave in ways that the surrounding infidel culture will find honorable, with an ultimate goal of winning them over. So, the wife is told to behave in a certain way in order to win over an unbelieving husband. Then, in the case where both are believers, they are both to behave in certain ways, and it's part of being subject to "every human institution" (2:13). Following that principle today in the West would look different from following it 2000-ish years ago in the Roman Empire.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                          Right. In general, I like the "Biblical Theology" approach of letting each text speak for itself as much as is practical. In this case, given that the two epistles are contemporaneous, by the same author, to sister churches in Asia, I'm comfortable letting the more extensive and detailed one shed light on the closely similar passage in the more abbreviated one.

                          And that's assuming the one really is addressed to Ephesus, rather than being a non-specific circular for the whole region, which might make it even *more* relevant as an interpretive guide.
                          I agree. One person of note in early church history responded to criticism, by saying (paraphrased) I have already said that the bird can only fly only by benefit of its wings. When I say no more than that a bird can fly, why do you assume that I consider it possible even if the bird has no wings.
                          {fly = ability to overcome sin ... wings = under the aegis of the Holy Spirit}

                          Step 1: Start with what a given text says, taking into account the immediate context where it adds nuance. (also take into account various factors that might militate against the text actually meaning what it says - e.g. "trees rejoicing")
                          Step 2: Check to see how that text fits into the overall picture presented by other texts addressing the same and similar issues.
                          Step 3: Go back to the text and compare it with the Koine Greek (NT) to make sure that the apparent meaning in English matches the meaning in the Koine Greek.
                          Step 4: Use the same process for each of the associated texts.

                          Tedious, but wholly necessary if mistakes are to be avoided.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 04-14-2022, 03:46 AM.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                            Hi Esther.

                            I haven't read Piper's article yet, but I'll get to it.

                            Regardless of how he explains "weaker vessel," he's going to have to do some work to overcome what I see as the context that begins around the middle of the previous chapter. They are being told to behave in ways that the surrounding infidel culture will find honorable, with an ultimate goal of winning them over. So, the wife is told to behave in a certain way in order to win over an unbelieving husband. Then, in the case where both are believers, they are both to behave in certain ways, and it's part of being subject to "every human institution" (2:13). Following that principle today in the West would look different from following it 2000-ish years ago in the Roman Empire.
                            Ok thanks!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Esther

                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              The Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel yes - and on balance women are not as strong as men. However, there are plenty of women who are stronger than most men, so it is only an on balance thing. But all that is a mere aside. The "weaker vessel" bit does not negate Peter's admonition to husbands that they should have the same attitude toward their wives that wives should have toward their husbands.


                              Originally posted by Esther
                              You are adding to the weaker vessel verse and giving your understanding when none is required.

                              When the Bible says the woman is the weaker vessel I am sure it is not only in a physical sense to make the husband aware that that she will not be able to win in an arm wrestling contest.


                              ? What does Piper have to say about that?

                              two things govern a Christian husband’s demeanor toward his wife in this verse:

                              (1) the fact that she does not share his superior masculine strength,
                              and
                              (2) the fact that she does share the glory of being an heir of God.
                              OK - on Piper's first point, he is, in your opinion, "adding to the weaker vessel verse and giving his own understanding where none is required." (or does your assessment of a comment change depending on who makes it?)

                              As to Piper's second point - words fail me.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment

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