The Leaven in Matt 13:33

[Cow Poke]

I see you edited your post, so lemme respond to this part...

...In order for the leaven to be bad, you would have to associate the good kingdom with the flour, which means Jesus would have said "The Kingdom of God is like 60 pounds of flour in which a woman has mixed 3 measures of leaven until it has worked it way through"

You are assuming "good kingdom", while I'm assuming that the visible kingdom on earth includes people who will go out from among us because they were never with us.
Or the many disciples that, in John 6:66, decided to follow Jesus no more.

[mossrose]

I was kidding - you and I know we believers are all saints.



Yes'm

I know you were teasing. But I know some others around here who would think that I revere John before the Lord, and don't want to give them any idears.

As I study this, I'm finding more and more reason to believe it was a warning, and I'm certainly open to hearing the other side.
As I said, most commentaries - including the site GotQuestions.org - make this use of 'leaven' an exception.

It is indeed an interesting thought.

If you want a bit of depth on MacArthur's stance, here you go. There is no video since this message is from 1982, but there is a transcript and audio.


https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-...kingdom-part-2

[mikewhitney]

I was working on a book on the Matt 13 parables of the mysteries of the kingdom of God back in 2006 -- the year before joining tweb.

The outcome of my study was that the kingdom of God primarily is about Christ's political reign over the nations -- and that we are benefactors of the kingdom by being in Christ.

The parables each contribute to an understanding of the nature of this kingdom. The leavening effect is sort of the invisible growth factor -- the influence of God's reign upon the nations. It is unseen but is taking effect. As such this is talking about something good happening. (I assume this is what is in my unfinished book.)

I forget how much I looked at various leaven. I think these just used leaven as an analogy for the way sin spread ... or the way that the bad doctrines (or more so concerning the practices) of the Pharisees spread. We may have associated with bad things just due to the usefulness of the analogy in describing these bad things.

[Sparko]

I see you edited your post, so lemme respond to this part...



You are assuming "good kingdom", while I'm assuming that the visible kingdom on earth includes people who will go out from among us because they were never with us.
Or the many disciples that, in John 6:66, decided to follow Jesus no more.

If we read it your way, then “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.” is saying that the kingdom of God will be completely overtaken by these people. Yet Jesus said that nothing can stop his church, or God's kingdom.

And it clearly associates the kingdom with the the leaven, not the flour or the woman. Just like it associated the kingdom with the mustard seed, not the birds.

[Cow Poke]

If we read it your way, then “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.” is saying that the kingdom of God will be completely overtaken by these people. Yet Jesus said that nothing can stop his church, or God's kingdom.

Meh, I don't think you have to take it that far, but look at the "kingdom of heaven" that we have now --- it's FULL of the false teachings and corruption that much of the New Testament addresses. There is the "visible kingdom" and the "Heavenly Kingdom", which would be good to discuss in another thread, perhaps.

And it clearly associates the kingdom with the the leaven, not the flour or the woman. Just like it associated the kingdom with the mustard seed, not the birds.

Why mention the birds? Which are almost always associated with evil, including the birds that stole the seed just a few verses prior?
And in other verses in Matthew, Jesus warns again of the leaven of the Pharisees.
Matthew is speaking to a Jewish audience who would be very familiar with the concept of leaven representing evil and/or corruption.

Scripture Verse: Mattew 16

6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

© Copyright Original Source

Again, I'm not wanting to do battle, just really wanting to look at this and understand why Jesus would take a concept so CLEARLY associated with sin and corruption and apply it to the kingdom of heaven.

[mikewhitney]

Meh, I don't think you have to take it that far, but look at the "kingdom of heaven" that we have now --- it's FULL of the false teachings and corruption that much of the New Testament addresses. There is the "visible kingdom" and the "Heavenly Kingdom", which would be good to discuss in another thread, perhaps.



Why mention the birds? Which are almost always associated with evil, including the birds that stole the seed just a few verses prior?
And in other verses in Matthew, Jesus warns again of the leaven of the Pharisees.
Matthew is speaking to a Jewish audience who would be very familiar with the concept of leaven representing evil and/or corruption.

Scripture Verse: Mattew 16

6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

© Copyright Original Source

Again, I'm not wanting to do battle, just really wanting to look at this and understand why Jesus would take a concept so CLEARLY associated with sin and corruption and apply it to the kingdom of heaven.

When you look at the mustard seed parable, you need to look at Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel 4):

Scripture Verse:

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was dismayed for a while, and his thoughts alarmed him. The king answered and said, “Belteshazzar, let not the dream or the interpretation alarm you.” Belteshazzar answered and said, “My lord, may the dream be for those who hate you and its interpretation for your enemies! 20 The tree you saw, which grew and became strong, so that its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth, 21 whose leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in which was food for all, under which beasts of the field found shade, and in whose branches the birds of the heavens lived— 22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong. Your greatness has grown and reaches to heaven, and your dominion to the ends of the earth

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version.

© Copyright Original Source

The birds are not harmful here nor were they harmful in the parable of the sower and the seed. You are expanding out to the other parables, which requires many more pieces of the puzzle (or parables) to be considered.

[3 Resurrections]

Leaven represents an AGENCY THAT PRODUCES CHANGE. That change can either be for EVIL (as in the leaven of the Pharisees), or it can be a change that produces RIGHTEOUSNESS (as in the incremental growth of the kingdom of heaven in this world).

[Thoughtful Monk]

When you look at the mustard seed parable, you need to look at Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel 4):

Scripture Verse:

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was dismayed for a while, and his thoughts alarmed him. The king answered and said, “Belteshazzar, let not the dream or the interpretation alarm you.” Belteshazzar answered and said, “My lord, may the dream be for those who hate you and its interpretation for your enemies! 20 The tree you saw, which grew and became strong, so that its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth, 21 whose leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in which was food for all, under which beasts of the field found shade, and in whose branches the birds of the heavens lived— 22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong. Your greatness has grown and reaches to heaven, and your dominion to the ends of the earth

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version.

© Copyright Original Source

The birds are not harmful here nor were they harmful in the parable of the sower and the seed. You are expanding out to the other parables, which requires many more pieces of the puzzle (or parables) to be considered.

On the other hand, if birds are a representation of evil, it would be consistent with evil hiding inside the church body.

Birds are harmful in parable of the sower and the seed. They take away the seed before it has a chance to take root, obviously preventing the growth of the kingdom of heaven.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Leaven represents an AGENCY THAT PRODUCES CHANGE. That change can either be for EVIL (as in the leaven of the Pharisees), or it can be a change that produces RIGHTEOUSNESS (as in the incremental growth of the kingdom of heaven in this world).

Agreed that leaven represents an AGENCY THAT PRODUCES CHANGE. The question is: Is the change for the good or for the bad?

[mossrose]

Leaven represents an AGENCY THAT PRODUCES CHANGE. That change can either be for EVIL (as in the leaven of the Pharisees), or it can be a change that produces RIGHTEOUSNESS (as in the incremental growth of the kingdom of heaven in this world).

Hey! Welcome to the site!

[Cow Poke]

On the other hand, if birds are a representation of evil, it would be consistent with evil hiding inside the church body.

And I think that's what Jesus was warning against - but I'm still studying that whole line of reasoning.

Birds are harmful in parable of the sower and the seed. They take away the seed before it has a chance to take root, obviously preventing the growth of the kingdom of heaven.

And at the time that Jesus was speaking, the kingdom of heaven was not growing fast like bread rising - it was under attack.

I'm still gathering information.

[Thoughtful Monk]

And at the time that Jesus was speaking, the kingdom of heaven was not growing fast like bread rising - it was under attack.

I'm still gathering information.

And there was a time when the church wasn't under attack? I think it's only a matter of severity and method of attack.

[Cow Poke]

And there was a time when the church wasn't under attack? I think it's only a matter of severity and method of attack.

Fair point, but I think Jesus was dealing with the fact that there would be problems from within - not just without.

[mikewhitney]

On the other hand, if birds are a representation of evil, it would be consistent with evil hiding inside the church body.

Birds are harmful in parable of the sower and the seed. They take away the seed before it has a chance to take root, obviously preventing the growth of the kingdom of heaven.

That would take us into the discussion of the parable of the sower and the seed. If we say the birds were evil, then we would have to say the rocks were evil too. If I can use another distraction, I may start a different thread on the parables.

[Cow Poke]

That would take us into the discussion of the parable of the sower and the seed. If we say the birds were evil, then we would have to say the rocks were evil too. If I can use another distraction, I may start a different thread on the parables.

Birds frequently represent evil in scripture. Rocks are inanimate objects. We build our house on the solid rock - representing Christ - so rocks are more likely to represent solid ground, not evil.

Leaven, on the other hand, never appears in scripture as a good thing, except for here, if you want to see it that way.