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The Leaven in Matt 13:33

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Faber View Post

    I've heard it explained that the three measures would be enough to last them a month for their long journey. That sounds about right. one meal for 100 people or 33 meals for each of the three visitors.
    I find it interesting that the parable could be referring to the same amount used with Abraham's encounter. I did not find a great insight to be gained from this but this does make me ponder some more. Our reading of verses should reflect a reasonable consideration of each aspect and each word. In this case, the meaning was not really altered.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Faber View Post

      I've heard it explained that the three measures would be enough to last them a month for their long journey. That sounds about right. one meal for 100 people or 33 meals for each of the three visitors.
      Incidentally, I posed this question to your adopted out-of-state Sunday School teacher without pre-loading it with my opinion, and he came to the same conclusion I did, but much more scholarly.

      Seriously, I would love to hear the two of you discuss this.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        A bread rhyme from my "Joy of Cooking" cookbook...

        "What hymns are sung,
        What praises said
        For homemade miracles of bread?"

        Thank you for the welcome to the site, mossrose. Glad to be here. I think I recognize a member name here that also posts on another Christian forum to which I regularly contribute.

        This thread caught my eye because the leaven parable is a perfect, simple illustration of my worldview from a different type of Preterist paradigm that is probably unlike one that any of you have yet encountered. (A position which, by the way, is still in sync with all the core doctrinal tenets mentioned in the rules for posting in this particular forum.) Cowpoke said earlier that "alternative" interpretations were what he was interested in with regard to this parable. Well, I've got one. The leaven parable truly does portray the complete history of the kingdom of God in this world with its "insignificant beginnings" ending in a "triumphant climax", as mikewhitney mentioned above.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post


          And it clearly associates the kingdom with the the leaven, not the flour or the woman. Just like it associated the kingdom with the mustard seed, not the birds.
          That's probably making too fine a point. Keener points out that Jesus is teaching in rabbinical style, where the "like" refers to the whole scenario, not just one item. So, back in v. 24, "the Kingdom" does not refer just to the sower, despite the wording.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

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          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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          • #50
            Birds are not presented as evil in Matt. 6:26 or 8:20.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              The "negative significance"? What does that even mean?

              Just real quick....

              Ex 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
              EX 12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
              EX 12:20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.
              Ex 12:34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
              Ex 12:39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.
              Ex 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the Lord brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
              Ex 13:7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
              Ex 23:18 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.
              Ex 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
              Lev 2:11 No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the Lord, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the Lord made by fire.
              Lev 6:17 It shall not be baken with leaven. I have given it unto them for their portion of my offerings made by fire; it is most holy, as is the sin offering, and as the trespass offering.
              Lev 7:13 Besides the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offerings.
              Lev 10:12 And Moses spake unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons that were left, Take the meat offering that remaineth of the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy:
              Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.
              Deut 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
              Deut 16:4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
              Hosea 7:4 They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker, who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough, until it be leavened.
              Amos 4:5 And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord God.
              Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
              Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
              Matt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
              Matt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
              Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
              Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
              Luke 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
              1 Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
              1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
              1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
              Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


              That's just a collection I've worked up since starting to study this. In some cases, it's actually OK to bring leavened bread as a peace offering, for example, but for Passover it was forbidden.


              I don't think any of that indicates leaven represented "evil." In the first couple of occurrences of "leaven" or "yeast" in the OT, its absence indicated only that the bread was prepared hastily. Many or most of the others, where it was excluded by command, seem to be intentional reminders of the Exodus event, not anything about the yeast itself.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                I don't think any of that indicates leaven represented "evil." In the first couple of occurrences of "leaven" or "yeast" in the OT, its absence indicated only that the bread was prepared hastily. Many or most of the others, where it was excluded by command, seem to be intentional reminders of the Exodus event, not anything about the yeast itself.
                No, not in and of themselves, but subsequently when leaven is opposed as "the leaven of the Pharisees", etc.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                  Birds are not presented as evil in Matt. 6:26 or 8:20.
                  For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                  In that first example, they don't reap or sow because they STEAL the seed the farmer is sowing!

                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Still, just thinking this through, because it's my day off, and it seems kinda slow on Tweb today....

                    I wanted to make sure I was using my term "expositional constancy" correct, as I learned that concept in Seminary many years ago, and wanted to refresh my mind.

                    So, I Googled it, and the very first hit was...

                    Expositional Constancy

                    This is a fancy term to remind us that symbolism in scripture tends to be consistent. For example, throughout the Bible leaven, or yeast, is used symbolically to stand for sin. Therefore there’s no justification for claiming that in the Parable of the Yeast (Matt. 13:33) and there alone, it stands for the Gospel. Expositional Constancy only applies to words that are used symbolically, so be careful. Peter’s statement in 2 Peter 3:9 that with the Lord a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day does not justify substituting 1000 years for a day every time it comes up. Peter was simply explaining that the Lord’s concept of time is way different from ours.


                    I thought it interesting that the first example of Expositional Constancy was Matt 13:33.

                    But it's important to note that the principle applies when an object is used in SYMBOLISM. When the Israelites were preparing unleavened cakes for their 'rapid response exodus', the leaven wasn't symbolic. It was an ingredient to be left out because of expediency.

                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I've not run into the phrase Expositional Constancy before but it makes sense to me. Thanks.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                      • #56
                        Matthew 13 also seems to be a compilation of various parables about the "kingdom of heaven", I don't think you can use the context of one to inform on another.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Matthew 13 also seems to be a compilation of various parables about the "kingdom of heaven", I don't think you can use the context of one to inform on another.
                          Yeah, and I think there needs to be some understanding of what the "Kingdom of Heaven" is -- because I think people assume it means "Heaven", pure and uncorrupt and without sin.

                          I just wish (along with millions of other people) that Jesus had expounded on this in the house like he did with a few of the others, where he explained what each element meant.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #58
                            The Google statement above automatically puts its own definition on leaven, (as presumably being symbolic of sin), and then says that definition has to remain constant. Some of us think that definition is not correct to begin with.

                            Leaven for the children of the Exodus came to represent a CHANGE in their condition of bondage to Egypt into becoming a covenant nation under God.

                            Leaven for the Pharisees’ doctrine meant that they had CHANGED the intent of the law with their man-made traditions.

                            Leaven in the bread dough parable represented a growing CHANGE in the number of people who would increasingly be exposed to the gospel and be added to the kingdom of heaven.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                              The Google statement above automatically puts its own definition on leaven, (as presumably being symbolic of sin), and then says that definition has to remain constant. Some of us think that definition is not correct to begin with.
                              Well aware of that, yes.

                              Leaven for the children of the Exodus came to represent a CHANGE in their condition of bondage to Egypt into becoming a covenant nation under God.
                              And was subsequently forbidden for the days preceding Passover, and all leaven must be removed from the house prior to Passover.

                              Leaven for the Pharisees’ doctrine meant that they had CHANGED the intent of the law with their man-made traditions.

                              Leaven in the bread dough parable represented a growing CHANGE in the number of people who would increasingly be exposed to the gospel and be added to the kingdom of heaven.
                              That is the majority opinion, yes.

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                LOL, I'm not usually in the "majority opinion" category very often, so that's good to know.

                                The following is NOT majority opinion that I'm aware of regarding the leaven parable. I believe Christ gave this brief illustration of leaven in the dough to represent the kingdom of heaven's progressive pattern of growth ever since creation up to the very end of fallen man's history on this planet.

                                Anyone who has made a good loaf of bread from scratch knows that the dough needs to rise *twice* to yield the best results. It takes a punch-down of the dough to develop the gluten in between those two risings, accompanied by a vigorous kneading process that squashes the dough absolutely flat again, builds elasticity, and strengthens the dough for its second rising. Typical of the dough's first rising, leaven initially creates huge, unsightly air pockets that are not well-distributed. Typical of the second rising, the fine-grained air pockets are very small, but are evenly distributed throughout the whole loaf this time before it is baked.

                                This is a duplicate of the progress of the kingdom of heaven in this world. In the early ages of this earth, the knowledge of God tended to cluster in isolated pockets, with God selecting a few notable exceptions to reveal Himself openly to them. (Think Enoch, Noah, Abraham, the covenant nation of Israel, etc.) For the nations at large, God "winked" at those "times of ignorance" and suffered mankind to walk in their own ways, as the apostle Paul said in Acts 14:16 and 17:30. At that time in history under the ministry of Paul, evangelism was exploding in the Gentile nations. All Asia in Paul's day was exposed to the gospel, as testified in Acts 19:10.

                                Enter the various persecution periods of the first century, which escalated in intensity until Nero the "little horn" waged open warfare against the saints and "wore them out" for 42 months until his death in AD 68. To all appearances, the kingdom of heaven was squashed flat. Yet with the passing of all the Old Covenant trappings in AD 70, and the manifestation of the unshaken New Covenant after that Great Tribulation era had passed (AD 66-70), the "leaven" of the kingdom still remained in the "dough" and continued to grow afterward. This steady growth since then of the "leaven" of the kingdom of heaven will inevitably and inexorably persist until the "loaf" has finally reached its peak development. The full dispersal of the kingdom of heaven among men will be evident at that point, just like the fine-grained texture in the loaf's second rising. "Baking day", which halts the growth of the leaven of the kingdom at that point, comes at the close of the New Covenant Ages before eternity begins.

                                At least, that's how this bread-maker sees it.

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