The Ultimate Goal

[Cow Poke]

I like that. Then if you don't go to the State Fair, you won't pay any taxes.

And if you stay too long at the fair, you get REALLY taxed! (At my age, staying anywhere very long can be taxing)

[Truthseeker]

So er, how exactly is the government supposed to fund things then? Honestly really curious...

You do realize that you started with the assumption that the government will do more good than bad with its spending? If you can show that beyond reasonable doubt, I may be willing to let the government spend all that I have.

[pancreasman]

I have an idea. Why not abolish all forms of civil government in the U.S. And traffic lights. Road rage and guns would take care of everything.

[Spartacus]

Another seer thread, another nigh-inscrutable title.

[pancreasman]

Another seer thread, another nigh-inscrutable title.

But strangely ... no exclamation marks.

[Starlight]

You may also want to look into the idea of the Fair Tax as one possible alternative.

A sales tax is pretty much the worst possible type of tax for everyone except the super-rich.

Sales taxes are what are known as (mathematically) "regressive" tax structures because people with less money who spend a higher proportion of their income on a weekly basis end up paying a higher percentage of their income in tax. People with higher incomes, who are able to save more money on a weekly basis are not taxed on the money they save just on the money they spend.

Sales taxes are almost always implemented with a giant, giant, loophole: In order to avoid "double-taxation" all companies are able to claim-back any sales taxes paid. The point of this is that if one company buys parts from another company and assembles them and then sells the product to another company who uses that in their product and then sells the product, then if a sales tax is applied at every step of the way the final product might have had a sales tax applied on it several times over making it absurdly expensive. In order to avoid this, companies tend to be granted a blanket exemption to claim-back all sales taxes paid. (This actually causes a huge amount of accounting overhead and means that the sales tax is not remotely as paperwork-free as it sounds) Unfortunately this exemption sets up a giant tax loop-hole for the rich: Anyone with the knowledge and ability to do so starts their own private company just for them and channels all their income and purchases through that company and then claims back the sales tax from the government and ends up paying no tax / getting a 23% discount on all items bought.

Both these reasons are why the rich absolutely love the idea of a sales taxes: They amount to the rich paying a much lower, possibly zero, percentage of their income in tax than everyone else.

Other general issues involved in a sales tax include:
- Pricing: It's often unclear whether advertised/displayed prices are the pre or post sales tax price, so consumers can be mislead.
- Incentives: The sales tax incentivises rich people who have a choice as to whether to save or spend their surplus money towards saving rather than spending it. This is terrible for the economy and job-creation and economic growth, as money spent creates jobs and fuels growth while money taken out of circulation and put into savings is a significant drain on the economy. One of the major problems we currently have with the economic system is that there is too much money sitting in savings and not enough being spent.

For all these reasons, it is vastly preferable to have no sales tax at all.

If the income tax system has gotten too complicated, then the response should be to simplify it: Abolish all the loopholes, subsidies, tax-exempt things, and simply have a single graduated percentage scale for income tax based on total earnings. Then you can have two boxes to fill in: Total earnings from all sources, and then calculated the tax owed.

[Truthseeker]

I have an idea. Why not abolish all forms of civil government in the U.S. And traffic lights. Road rage and guns would take care of everything.

Maybe you jest. Anyway, you do realize you are assuming that in a world of no State people would be much more prone to use violence to settle differences than the people of this world are prone? Or perhaps you are assuming that the no-State people would be more prone to commit immoral acts such as murder, robbery, fraud, etc., than the people of this world are prone?

[pancreasman]

Maybe you jest. Anyway, you do realize you are assuming that in a world of no State people would be much more prone to use violence to settle differences than the people of this world are prone? Or perhaps you are assuming that the no-State people would be more prone to commit immoral acts such as murder, robbery, fraud, etc., than the people of this world are prone?

Aren't you a Christian? Doesn't a Christian hold the view that mankind is fallen, and in his 'natural' state, evil? Don't you think that many people of low moral development are only held in check by fear of punishment. For Pete's sake, man, be consistent!

[Darth Executor]

I pray that it happens soon, as that may be the only thing that can wake up the more marginal churches.

This is what happens when you surrender the state to your enemies out of an idiotic belief that the state is inherently evil. Conservatives are to government like liberals are to guns. They think the tool has a will of its own and its mere presence will taint the wielder. The end result is predictable: the one who does not shy away from using the best tool for the job loses, and the state is the best tool for shaping culture and society.

[Truthseeker]

Aren't you a Christian? Doesn't a Christian hold the view that mankind is fallen, and in his 'natural' state, evil? Don't you think that many people of low moral development are only held in check by fear of punishment. For Pete's sake, man, be consistent!

I am not sure what you are thinking. Possibly you misread my posts. I will take a shot in the dark. I did not assume that the people in the no-State world are better than in our actual world.

[Truthseeker]

This is what happens when you surrender the state to your enemies out of an idiotic belief that the state is inherently evil.

What enemies? Oh, possibly you mean people who would make me a victim of evil acts. Anyway, you clearly misinterpreted my post. The point is that the State is not able to our knowledge to make the world better than the no-State world. I did not think of the State as inherently evil (but I do think that the State's power draws sociopaths as honey draws flies. Such people want to grasp the reins of State power. Consider the civil war between Marc Anthony and Octavian, which ended in the Battle of Actium.

Conservatives are to government like liberals are to guns. They think the tool has a will of its own and its mere presence will taint the wielder. The end result is predictable: the one who does not shy away from using the best tool for the job loses, and the state is the best tool for shaping culture and society.

Nonsense. I am not a conservative anyway.

"Its mere presence will taint the wielder." I guess you do not agree with this: "Absolute power corrupts." Actually it's more what I said before: "The power of the State draws sociopaths . . . "

[Cow Poke]

I have an idea. Why not abolish all forms of civil government in the U.S. And traffic lights. Road rage and guns would take care of everything.

I have an idea. Why not citizen legislators who serve a limited term then have to go home and live under the laws they enacted.

[Knowing Thomas]

Great, now the panic attacks start.

[Darth Executor]

What enemies? Oh, possibly you mean people who would make me a victim of evil acts. Anyway, you clearly misinterpreted my post.

Are you retarded or something? I wasn't talking to or quoting you so I don't understand how I could possibly misinterpret your post.

"Its mere presence will taint the wielder." I guess you do not agree with this: "Absolute power corrupts."

God must be absolutely corrupt then huh?

Actually it's more what I said before: "The power of the State draws sociopaths . . . "

All the more reason to make sure you are the one controlling it.

[rogue06]

A sales tax is pretty much the worst possible type of tax for everyone except the super-rich.

Sales taxes are what are known as (mathematically) "regressive" tax structures because people with less money who spend a higher proportion of their income on a weekly basis end up paying a higher percentage of their income in tax. People with higher incomes, who are able to save more money on a weekly basis are not taxed on the money they save just on the money they spend.

Sales taxes are almost always implemented with a giant, giant, loophole: In order to avoid "double-taxation" all companies are able to claim-back any sales taxes paid. The point of this is that if one company buys parts from another company and assembles them and then sells the product to another company who uses that in their product and then sells the product, then if a sales tax is applied at every step of the way the final product might have had a sales tax applied on it several times over making it absurdly expensive. In order to avoid this, companies tend to be granted a blanket exemption to claim-back all sales taxes paid. (This actually causes a huge amount of accounting overhead and means that the sales tax is not remotely as paperwork-free as it sounds) Unfortunately this exemption sets up a giant tax loop-hole for the rich: Anyone with the knowledge and ability to do so starts their own private company just for them and channels all their income and purchases through that company and then claims back the sales tax from the government and ends up paying no tax / getting a 23% discount on all items bought.

Both these reasons are why the rich absolutely love the idea of a sales taxes: They amount to the rich paying a much lower, possibly zero, percentage of their income in tax than everyone else.

Other general issues involved in a sales tax include:
- Pricing: It's often unclear whether advertised/displayed prices are the pre or post sales tax price, so consumers can be mislead.
- Incentives: The sales tax incentivises rich people who have a choice as to whether to save or spend their surplus money towards saving rather than spending it. This is terrible for the economy and job-creation and economic growth, as money spent creates jobs and fuels growth while money taken out of circulation and put into savings is a significant drain on the economy. One of the major problems we currently have with the economic system is that there is too much money sitting in savings and not enough being spent.

For all these reasons, it is vastly preferable to have no sales tax at all.

If the income tax system has gotten too complicated, then the response should be to simplify it: Abolish all the loopholes, subsidies, tax-exempt things, and simply have a single graduated percentage scale for income tax based on total earnings. Then you can have two boxes to fill in: Total earnings from all sources, and then calculated the tax owed.

Thank you for demonstrating the point that I made about altering provisions of the Fair Tax in order to attack it.