For PM "Who is a Christian"

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Have you even bothered to read my posts? I answered this question in post #21.

It seemed from that post that the essentials you propose for calling oneself Christian are confessing in one's heart that Jesus is Lord, and believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, as you seem to acknowledge, this would include other groups (like Mormons and JW's) who I am quite often told are not real Christians. I don't understand how your reference to Revelation 22:19 is supposed to disqualify these groups from their adherence to Romans 10:9, though.

[Adrift]

I thought it was "to be, or not to be"?

To be a Christian, or not to be a Christian?

[Cow Poke]

To be a Christian, or not to be a Christian?

By Jove, I think he's GOT it!

[Adrift]

It seemed from that post that the essentials you propose for calling oneself Christian are confessing in one's heart that Jesus is Lord, and believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, as you seem to acknowledge, this would include other groups (like Mormons and JW's) who I am quite often told are not real Christians. I don't understand how your reference to Revelation 22:19 is supposed to disqualify these groups from their adherence to Romans 10:9, though.

I think this probably then gets into the nitty gritty of who the Jesus is they call Lord. To the Mormon, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and the spirit-child of the Father (who himself was once a spirit-child), born on the planet Kolob, and that eventually, like his father before him, he grew up and became a god through his mighty works. To the Jehovah Witness, Jesus is the archangel Michael. To the orthodox Christian, Jesus is a member of the eternal Triune Godhead. Three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature.

These distinctions may seem unimportant to the outsider, but its the difference between making Jesus Lord, and making Mickey Mouse Lord in orthodox theology.

[Cow Poke]

I think this probably then gets into the nitty gritty of who the Jesus is they call Lord. To the Mormon, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and the spirit-child of the Father (who himself was once a spirit-child), born on the planet Kolob, and that eventually, like his father before him, he grew up and became a god through his mighty works. To the Jehovah Witness, Jesus is the archangel Michael. To the orthodox Christian, Jesus is a member of the eternal Triune Godhead. Three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature.

These distinctions may seem unimportant to the outsider, but its the difference between making Jesus Lord, and making Mickey Mouse Lord in orthodox theology.

Yeah, and AGAIN I'll point out that Just becomes somebody "becomes a Mormon" doesn't necessarily make them "NOT a Christian", because the Mormons are very sneaky about hiding their weirder doctrines -- they want you going in thinking that they are just "the RESTORED Church", and that the Book of Mormon is "another Testament of our Lord Jesus". It's during their indoctrination that you learn new meanings of familiar terms, etc...

[Kristian Joensen]

It seemed from that post that the essentials you propose for calling oneself Christian are confessing in one's heart that Jesus is Lord, and believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, as you seem to acknowledge, this would include other groups (like Mormons and JW's) who I am quite often told are not real Christians. I don't understand how your reference to Revelation 22:19 is supposed to disqualify these groups from their adherence to Romans 10:9, though.

Regarding JW's and Mormon's I would use creedal orthodoxy as a sort of rule of thumby litmust test. So agreement with the Apostle's, Nicene, Chalcedonian and Athenasian creeds.

[Adrift]

Yeah, and AGAIN I'll point out that Just becomes somebody "becomes a Mormon" doesn't necessarily make them "NOT a Christian", because the Mormons are very sneaky about hiding their weirder doctrines -- they want you going in thinking that they are just "the RESTORED Church", and that the Book of Mormon is "another Testament of our Lord Jesus". It's during their indoctrination that you learn new meanings of familiar terms, etc...

Yeah, I don't know how many times I've heard ex-Mormons express surprise about the church's teachings. The other day I was listening to the testimony of Lynn Wilder who was a BYU Professor and was shocked to learn about the church's past, and its stranger bits of doctrine. Things that didn't come to light for her until her son got into trouble with the church when he expressed doubts about Mormonism based on his reading of the New Testament. She's now an orthodox Christian.

[Cow Poke]

Regarding JW's and Mormon's I would use creedal orthodoxy as a sort of rule of thumby litmust test. So agreement with the Apostle's, Nicene, Chalcedonian and Athenasian creeds.

I love that! Can I use that?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

I think this probably then gets into the nitty gritty of who the Jesus is they call Lord. To the Mormon, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and the spirit-child of the Father (who himself was once a spirit-child), born on the planet Kolob, and that eventually, like his father before him, he grew up and became a god through his mighty works. To the Jehovah Witness, Jesus is the archangel Michael. To the orthodox Christian, Jesus is a member of the eternal Triune Godhead. Three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature.

These distinctions may seem unimportant to the outsider, but its the difference between making Jesus Lord, and making Mickey Mouse Lord in orthodox theology.

I understand that such beliefs would preclude someone from being an orthodox Christian, but wouldn't they still be an unorthodox Christian, in that case? For example, Oneness Pentecostals consider themselves to be Christian, despite their rejection of the Triune Godhead. Would you say that Oneness Pentecostals are not "real" Christians?

[Cow Poke]

How do we know if somebody is "happily married"? Would a wedding license do the trick? A statement by one of the spouses? A statement by BOTH spouses?

Or would we look at how much time they spend together, how much they enjoy being around each other, how faithful they are to one another..... how they talk about each other, how they live their lives...

The PROOF of the banana puddin is in the TASTING!*




*ok, so that doesn't apply so much

[Kristian Joensen]

I love that! Can I use that?

Sure, go right ahead! :P :)

[Cow Poke]

Sure, go right ahead! :P :)

It kinda reminds me of when my wife asks, "can you scootchie over"?

[Adrift]

I understand that such beliefs would preclude someone from being an orthodox Christian, but wouldn't they still be an unorthodox Christian, in that case? For example, Oneness Pentecostals consider themselves to be Christian, despite their rejection of the Triune Godhead. Would you say that Oneness Pentecostals are not "real" Christians?

I think the term "unorthodox Christianity" is a polite way of saying "A Christian in Name Only". The question that still needs to be asked is "have they replaced the essentials?"

[Carrikature]

How do we know if somebody is "happily married"? Would a wedding license do the trick? A statement by one of the spouses? A statement by BOTH spouses?

Or would we look at how much time they spend together, how much they enjoy being around each other, how faithful they are to one another..... how they talk about each other, how they live their lives...

I think BP's earlier statement covers this: self-identification. There is no other test without arguing definitions (which is endless and subjective). Better to ask "what does that mean to you?" and realize that "if one acts/thinks thus, so will they all" is a false statement.

[Carrikature]

Regarding JW's and Mormon's I would use creedal orthodoxy as a sort of rule of thumby litmust test. So agreement with the Apostle's, Nicene, Chalcedonian and Athenasian creeds.

Creeds would be a useful start if everyone actually affirmed them. Is there a regulatory authority that enforces acceptance of the creed? Without such a thing, can they really be binding?