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For PM "Who is a Christian"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Have you even bothered to read my posts? I answered this question in post #21.
    It seemed from that post that the essentials you propose for calling oneself Christian are confessing in one's heart that Jesus is Lord, and believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, as you seem to acknowledge, this would include other groups (like Mormons and JW's) who I am quite often told are not real Christians. I don't understand how your reference to Revelation 22:19 is supposed to disqualify these groups from their adherence to Romans 10:9, though.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I thought it was "to be, or not to be"?
      To be a Christian, or not to be a Christian?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        To be a Christian, or not to be a Christian?
        By Jove, I think he's GOT it!
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
          It seemed from that post that the essentials you propose for calling oneself Christian are confessing in one's heart that Jesus is Lord, and believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, as you seem to acknowledge, this would include other groups (like Mormons and JW's) who I am quite often told are not real Christians. I don't understand how your reference to Revelation 22:19 is supposed to disqualify these groups from their adherence to Romans 10:9, though.
          I think this probably then gets into the nitty gritty of who the Jesus is they call Lord. To the Mormon, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and the spirit-child of the Father (who himself was once a spirit-child), born on the planet Kolob, and that eventually, like his father before him, he grew up and became a god through his mighty works. To the Jehovah Witness, Jesus is the archangel Michael. To the orthodox Christian, Jesus is a member of the eternal Triune Godhead. Three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature.

          These distinctions may seem unimportant to the outsider, but its the difference between making Jesus Lord, and making Mickey Mouse Lord in orthodox theology.
          Last edited by Adrift; 02-17-2015, 10:44 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            I think this probably then gets into the nitty gritty of who the Jesus is they call Lord. To the Mormon, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and the spirit-child of the Father (who himself was once a spirit-child), born on the planet Kolob, and that eventually, like his father before him, he grew up and became a god through his mighty works. To the Jehovah Witness, Jesus is the archangel Michael. To the orthodox Christian, Jesus is a member of the eternal Triune Godhead. Three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature.

            These distinctions may seem unimportant to the outsider, but its the difference between making Jesus Lord, and making Mickey Mouse Lord in orthodox theology.
            Yeah, and AGAIN I'll point out that Just becomes somebody "becomes a Mormon" doesn't necessarily make them "NOT a Christian", because the Mormons are very sneaky about hiding their weirder doctrines -- they want you going in thinking that they are just "the RESTORED Church", and that the Book of Mormon is "another Testament of our Lord Jesus". It's during their indoctrination that you learn new meanings of familiar terms, etc...
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              It seemed from that post that the essentials you propose for calling oneself Christian are confessing in one's heart that Jesus is Lord, and believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. However, as you seem to acknowledge, this would include other groups (like Mormons and JW's) who I am quite often told are not real Christians. I don't understand how your reference to Revelation 22:19 is supposed to disqualify these groups from their adherence to Romans 10:9, though.

              Regarding JW's and Mormon's I would use creedal orthodoxy as a sort of rule of thumby litmust test. So agreement with the Apostle's, Nicene, Chalcedonian and Athenasian creeds.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yeah, and AGAIN I'll point out that Just becomes somebody "becomes a Mormon" doesn't necessarily make them "NOT a Christian", because the Mormons are very sneaky about hiding their weirder doctrines -- they want you going in thinking that they are just "the RESTORED Church", and that the Book of Mormon is "another Testament of our Lord Jesus". It's during their indoctrination that you learn new meanings of familiar terms, etc...
                Yeah, I don't know how many times I've heard ex-Mormons express surprise about the church's teachings. The other day I was listening to the testimony of Lynn Wilder who was a BYU Professor and was shocked to learn about the church's past, and its stranger bits of doctrine. Things that didn't come to light for her until her son got into trouble with the church when he expressed doubts about Mormonism based on his reading of the New Testament. She's now an orthodox Christian.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                  Regarding JW's and Mormon's I would use creedal orthodoxy as a sort of rule of thumby litmust test. So agreement with the Apostle's, Nicene, Chalcedonian and Athenasian creeds.
                  I love that! Can I use that?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    I think this probably then gets into the nitty gritty of who the Jesus is they call Lord. To the Mormon, Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and the spirit-child of the Father (who himself was once a spirit-child), born on the planet Kolob, and that eventually, like his father before him, he grew up and became a god through his mighty works. To the Jehovah Witness, Jesus is the archangel Michael. To the orthodox Christian, Jesus is a member of the eternal Triune Godhead. Three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature.

                    These distinctions may seem unimportant to the outsider, but its the difference between making Jesus Lord, and making Mickey Mouse Lord in orthodox theology.
                    I understand that such beliefs would preclude someone from being an orthodox Christian, but wouldn't they still be an unorthodox Christian, in that case? For example, Oneness Pentecostals consider themselves to be Christian, despite their rejection of the Triune Godhead. Would you say that Oneness Pentecostals are not "real" Christians?
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      How do we know if somebody is "happily married"? Would a wedding license do the trick? A statement by one of the spouses? A statement by BOTH spouses?

                      Or would we look at how much time they spend together, how much they enjoy being around each other, how faithful they are to one another..... how they talk about each other, how they live their lives...

                      The PROOF of the banana puddin is in the TASTING!*




                      *ok, so that doesn't apply so much
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I love that! Can I use that?
                        Sure, go right ahead! :P :)

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                          Sure, go right ahead! :P :)
                          It kinda reminds me of when my wife asks, "can you scootchie over"?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            I understand that such beliefs would preclude someone from being an orthodox Christian, but wouldn't they still be an unorthodox Christian, in that case? For example, Oneness Pentecostals consider themselves to be Christian, despite their rejection of the Triune Godhead. Would you say that Oneness Pentecostals are not "real" Christians?
                            I think the term "unorthodox Christianity" is a polite way of saying "A Christian in Name Only". The question that still needs to be asked is "have they replaced the essentials?"

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              How do we know if somebody is "happily married"? Would a wedding license do the trick? A statement by one of the spouses? A statement by BOTH spouses?

                              Or would we look at how much time they spend together, how much they enjoy being around each other, how faithful they are to one another..... how they talk about each other, how they live their lives...
                              I think BP's earlier statement covers this: self-identification. There is no other test without arguing definitions (which is endless and subjective). Better to ask "what does that mean to you?" and realize that "if one acts/thinks thus, so will they all" is a false statement.
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                                Regarding JW's and Mormon's I would use creedal orthodoxy as a sort of rule of thumby litmust test. So agreement with the Apostle's, Nicene, Chalcedonian and Athenasian creeds.
                                Creeds would be a useful start if everyone actually affirmed them. Is there a regulatory authority that enforces acceptance of the creed? Without such a thing, can they really be binding?
                                I'm not here anymore.

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