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For PM "Who is a Christian"

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  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Hey KG, just curious, but what do you mean by intentionally messing with the Bible is evidence of a lack of salvation? What does that mean exactly?

    And yeah, I agree with you and BP that the passage in question is referring to that particular book and not to the canon as a whole, though I think its probably not completely out of the question to extrapolate something like MM's view from it. Its debatable I suppose.
    Even without the verse from Revelation you have this.

    Proverbs 30:5-7New International Version (NIV)

    5 “Every word of God is flawless;
    he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
    6 Do not add to his words,
    or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
    7 “Two things I ask of you, Lord;
    do not refuse me before I die:

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    From a pastoral POV, I think there could be some value in ensuring it's only understood as Revelation, because rightly or wrongly, this verse is sometimes interpreted as an "unforgivable sin", and some people may fear that they committed it because they misinterpreted something in the Bible. Putting the verse in its correct context (which actually is a common type of imprecation about textual alterations) can help assuage fears.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You're still missing some fundamental points here. What is the book of Revelation? It is scripture, correct? Meaning that it is "God-breathed" according to 2 Timothy 3:16. That's why we are warned in no uncertain terms not to alter it, because we would be changing that which has been God-breathed. Revelation 22:18-19 essentailly says, "Don't mess with the Word of God." On what basis would you limit this warning to only Revelation and not to the rest of the God-breathed scriptures?
    The verse could implicitly extend to other scripture once Revelation was accepted as scripture, which was not a sure thing for quite some time (thanks largely to the falling out of favor of chiliasm and Eusebius' stance against it).

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Hey KG, just curious, but what do you mean by intentionally messing with the Bible is evidence of a lack of salvation? What does that mean exactly?

    And yeah, I agree with you and BP that the passage in question is probably referring to that particular book and not to the canon as a whole, I think its probably not completely out of the question to extrapolate something like MM's view from it. Its debatable I suppose.
    To me, at least, intentionally trying to twist or misrepresent the words of the Bible is a form of lying, which Revelation 21:8 lists as one of the sins that will end in the lake of fire. Somebody who is knowingly doing this over a period of time without any remorse is not showing fruit of the spirit.

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  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    No, the Greek very specifically refers to that particular book. As I said earlier, intentionally messing with the Bible is evidence of a lack of salvation, but that particular warning only applies to Revelation.
    Hey KG, just curious, but what do you mean by intentionally messing with the Bible is evidence of a lack of salvation? What does that mean exactly?

    And yeah, I agree with you and BP that the passage in question is referring to that particular book and not to the canon as a whole, though I think its probably not completely out of the question to extrapolate something like MM's view from it. Its debatable I suppose.
    Last edited by Adrift; 02-20-2015, 12:32 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    No, the Greek very specifically refers to that particular book. As I said earlier, intentionally messing with the Bible is evidence of a lack of salvation, but that particular warning only applies to Revelation.
    I see the warning in Revelation as simply another example of the rejection of altering scripture. Nit picking like this serves little purpose. Even if we agree that the Revelation warning is specific to Revelation, the concept being espoused by MM is still accurate. What we have is one more warning against altering scripture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boxing Pythagoras
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You're still missing some fundamental points here. What is the book of Revelation? It is scripture, correct? Meaning that it is "God-breathed" according to 2 Timothy 3:16. That's why we are warned in no uncertain terms not to alter it, because we would be changing that which has been God-breathed. Revelation 22:18-19 essentailly says, "Don't mess with the Word of God." On what basis would you limit this warning to only Revelation and not to the rest of the God-breathed scriptures?
    Again, Revelation 22:18-19 doesn't say, "Don't mess with the Word of God," at all. It is very clearly and explicitly a warning against the alteration of the book of Revelation. You cannot extend that particular warning to other writings without adding your own opinions which are not included in the text-- which seems to be the very thing which these verses intend to prohibit.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You're still missing some fundamental points here. What is the book of Revelation? It is scripture, correct? Meaning that it is "God-breathed" according to 2 Timothy 3:16. That's why we are warned in no uncertain terms not to alter it, because we would be changing that which has been God-breathed. Revelation 22:18-19 essentailly says, "Don't mess with the Word of God." On what basis would you limit this warning to only Revelation and not to the rest of the God-breathed scriptures?
    No, the Greek very specifically refers to that particular book. As I said earlier, intentionally messing with the Bible is evidence of a lack of salvation, but that particular warning only applies to Revelation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    The actual text of Revelation 22:18-19 does not make any reference to the Word of God. The warning quite clearly and explicitly is given by the author against altering τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου, "this book," as opposed to "the Word of God" or "Scripture" or some other phrase which would extend the warning to other writings.

    The only way for you to assert that this particular warning applies to all books of the Bible would be to add your own interpretation to the text, which seems to be precisely the thing which Rev 22:18-19 warns against.
    You're still missing some fundamental points here. What is the book of Revelation? It is scripture, correct? Meaning that it is "God-breathed" according to 2 Timothy 3:16. That's why we are warned in no uncertain terms not to alter it, because we would be changing that which has been God-breathed. Revelation 22:18-19 essentailly says, "Don't mess with the Word of God." On what basis would you limit this warning to only Revelation and not to the rest of the God-breathed scriptures?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    I hadn't had my coffee yet, and I read the title wrong......

    I saw, "For PM, Who is a Christian", and I thought ... No, he's not!

    Leave a comment:


  • Boxing Pythagoras
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The logic here is quite straightforward: Why the dire warning? Why would altering the text of Revelation be such a grievous sin? Quite simply, because it would be altering the Word of God, which is essentially to commit blasphemy.
    The actual text of Revelation 22:18-19 does not make any reference to the Word of God. The warning quite clearly and explicitly is given by the author against altering τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου, "this book," as opposed to "the Word of God" or "Scripture" or some other phrase which would extend the warning to other writings.

    The only way for you to assert that this particular warning applies to all books of the Bible would be to add your own interpretation to the text, which seems to be precisely the thing which Rev 22:18-19 warns against.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    Actually, I would say the complete opposite: there's no reason to think that warning applies to anything but the book of Revelation. That book was written completely independently of the rest of the books of the Bible. Nothing in the text, itself, extends the warning to any other books-- quite the contrary, it explicitly states that it is referring to τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου, "this book." Revelation would not be compiled alongside the other books of the New Testament until a few centuries after it had been written.

    It seems fairly clear that Rev 22:18-19 was a warning from John of Patmos to any who might think about revising, editing, or emending his apocalypse. There's no indication of any greater meaning for this passage than that.
    The logic here is quite straightforward: Why the dire warning? Why would altering the text of Revelation be such a grievous sin? Quite simply, because it would be altering the Word of God, which is essentially to commit blasphemy. So why wouldn't such prohibitions apply to the rest of God's Word?

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    Actually, I would say the complete opposite: there's no reason to think that warning applies to anything but the book of Revelation. That book was written completely independently of the rest of the books of the Bible. Nothing in the text, itself, extends the warning to any other books-- quite the contrary, it explicitly states that it is referring to τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου, "this book." Revelation would not be compiled alongside the other books of the New Testament until a few centuries after it had been written.

    It seems fairly clear that Rev 22:18-19 was a warning from John of Patmos to any who might think about revising, editing, or emending his apocalypse. There's no indication of any greater meaning for this passage than that.
    I agree with this. I believe I read a note in one study Bible (I don't remember exactly where I read it to be honest) that said that this warning was similar to other imprecations about altering documents at this time. I agree, from a Christian perspective, that intentionally altering the Bible to make it inaccurate is evidence of a lack of salvation, but I don't think we can apply Rev 22:18-19 more broadly. (I've seen those verses misused badly; I even saw read something from a certain well known pastor arguing that it means that Christians who buy into higher criticism/JEDP theory cannot be saved.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Boxing Pythagoras
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll" (Revelation 22:18-19). There's no reason to think that warning applies only to the book of Revelation since the entire Bible is God's word from cover to cover.
    Actually, I would say the complete opposite: there's no reason to think that warning applies to anything but the book of Revelation. That book was written completely independently of the rest of the books of the Bible. Nothing in the text, itself, extends the warning to any other books-- quite the contrary, it explicitly states that it is referring to τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου, "this book." Revelation would not be compiled alongside the other books of the New Testament until a few centuries after it had been written.

    It seems fairly clear that Rev 22:18-19 was a warning from John of Patmos to any who might think about revising, editing, or emending his apocalypse. There's no indication of any greater meaning for this passage than that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    This...doesn't work. There's nothing in there at all about adding to or subtracting from God's word. That's your addition. The scriptures in question are solely about traditions contradicted God's commands. That's not the same thing. There's nothing wrong with those traditions, especially when you can't deny that oral tradition is the foundation. The problem with tradition is when it's given priority over God's commands. Jesus' issue with the Pharisees is continually one where they treasure the letter and not the spirit of the law, and that's clearly portrayed in the full context of Mark. My argument hasn't fallen apart in the slightest.
    "There's nothing in there at all about adding to or subtracting from God's word."

    You sure about that?

    "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll" (Revelation 22:18-19). There's no reason to think that warning applies only to the book of Revelation since the entire Bible is God's word from cover to cover.

    "The scriptures in question are solely about traditions [contradicting] God's commands."

    Exactly. I have not argued otherwise.

    The scripture is quite clear: anybody who believes that salvation comes by any means other than what God has ordained is not a Christian. "Depart from me, you evildoer, for I don't know you!"

    Leave a comment:

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