Ethnic Cleansing by Christians in CAR

[One Bad Pig]

Umm, no, it was to execute murderers. The state didn't carry out the sentence, a family appointed avenger of blood did. Though I think it's questionable whether the acts in the OP constitute vigilantism in light of the situation in Central African Republic as noted in my previous post.

You're right, I misremembered that - though the CAR is not living under the Mosaic Covenant in any case.

[Epoetker]

Romans 12:19 is as open and shut as it gets.

Romans 12:19 has nothing to do with executing criminal belligerents. I'm a big strong dude with military training, I can laugh or fight off the majority of aggressive attempts on my life far more easily than 99% of you. But I will most certainly not tolerate a society where such attempts are common, nor where such people get away with them without punishment. The sin which is openly tolerated becomes a stumbling block to the weak and the innocent, and it is rightly punished with death wherever people are interested in things more important than avoiding any present troubles. It is a duty to be done quite apart from your personal feelings, vengeful or otherwise. He who neglects it, and thus harms his neighborhood, tribe, or city, is very close kin to he who neglects his own family.

[Darth Executor]

It's phrased in a broad manner with a general appeal to OT principle (incidentally, Leviticus 19:18 banned revenge among the Israelites; a logical conclusion of Jesus' ethics would be that one should apply the same ethical principles to one's enemies) so I see nothing that would limit the context to some situation in the Roman Empire.

It's unlikely that Leviticus 19:18 was meant to have universal application since the OT sanctions both individual vengeance (like the avenger of blood I mentioned earlier) and collective vengeance (IE: the Amalekites, which is not dissimilar to the OP, if not a lot harsher). More likely it was directed at petty vengeance for more trivial offenses.

I mentioned Rome because the situation in many parts of Africa (including CAR) is outside the legal framework under which Paul was speaking and much more similar to OT Israel and its various tribal conflicts.

[KingsGambit]

Not really. CAR is not the Roman Empire, it's a post-colonial artifact in a state of near anarchy. An argument could be made that the militias ARE the state and thus sanctioned to punish the wicked but the lines aren't as clearly drawn as they would be if this was happening in a normal country.

It's phrased in a broad manner with a general appeal to OT principle (incidentally, Leviticus 19:18 banned revenge among the Israelites; a logical conclusion of Jesus' ethics would be that one should apply the same ethical principles to one's enemies) so I see nothing that would limit the context to some situation in the Roman Empire. Militia factors are a complicating factor, of course, as I do reject pacifism.

[Darth Executor]

That's support for protection from vigilante justice. "Thou shalt not murder" was concurrently in effect.

Umm, no, it was to execute murderers. The state didn't carry out the sentence, a family appointed avenger of blood did. Though I think it's questionable whether the acts in the OP constitute vigilantism in light of the situation in Central African Republic as noted in my previous post.

[Darth Executor]

Romans 12:19 is as open and shut as it gets.

Not really. CAR is not the Roman Empire, it's a post-colonial artifact in a state of near anarchy. An argument could be made that the militias ARE the state and thus sanctioned to punish the wicked but the lines aren't as clearly drawn as they would be if this was happening in a normal country.

[Cerebrum123]

That's support for protection from vigilante justice. "Thou shalt not murder" was concurrently in effect.

I'm not sure that's what it was. The "avenger of blood" seems to have been a lawful executioner. As long as the law was followed, the avenger of blood would not be considered a murderer.

Numbers 35:21 or if out of enmity one person hits another with their fist so that the other dies, that person is to be put to death; that person is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when they meet.

Numbers 35:26 “‘But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which they fled 27 and the avenger of blood finds them outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder.

I don't think this supports vigilante justice either though.

[pancreasman]

I note the proponents of a harsh, violent view of God always get their support from the OT. They hardly ever quote Jesus.

[One Bad Pig]

Avenger of blood?

That's support for protection from vigilante justice. "Thou shalt not murder" was concurrently in effect.

[KingsGambit]

Avenger of blood?

Romans 12:19 is as open and shut as it gets.

[Darth Executor]

I find this attitude very negative, and I'm honestly surprised to hear you expressing it. We might as well call back all of our international missionaries if you really do think this way. Ignoring parts of the body that aren't in our immediate vicinity sounds like a good way to lose them. We shouldn't then be surprised when non-Christians point to us, and say "how come no one is speaking out on this!"

Seems to me like Western Christians have been ignoring this part of the body which was in need of security from muslim savages up to the point where they start defending themselves Old Testament style at which point all the moralizing nannies descend on them like a pack of vultures from their comfortable first world couch to preach to them about the love of Jesus.

[Darth Executor]

Since when is there Biblical support for vigilante justice?

Avenger of blood?

[Cow Poke]

I know of a woman who, in her 70s, called up our missions center and said, "I want to go to Africa. My husband is dead, and I don't care where I die, since we'll be together in eternity anyway. How can I help?" She spent 8 years in Tanzania, teaching women to sew and catechizing them before being dragged home kicking and screaming for treatment of a lung ailment. We can make an impact wherever God directs us. For most of us, that's in our home community, but God calls some people to serve elsewhere.

Sure

[Adrift]

Since when is there Biblical support for vigilante justice?

The stuff that he says is so disgusting that I don't even pay any mind to it anymore. He's a troll and what he wants more than anything is attention.

[One Bad Pig]

I guess I'm a bit more pragmatic than that. I know there's a snowball's chance in heck of anything I do or say impacting the actual situation in central Africa. I CAN, however, be involved with homeless and hungry people in my community, and do things like our car clinic and jobs for life and faith mission.

It sure sounds noble to want to be concerned about matters in far away lands, and I don't mean to be cold-hearted, but there are thousands of situations all over the world that we could discuss and learn more about and talk about HOPING that some ball will get rolling.

We only have so much time and energy, and I guess I just choose to use mine where it can honestly reasonably make an impact.

I know of a woman who, in her 70s, called up our missions center and said, "I want to go to Africa. My husband is dead, and I don't care where I die, since we'll be together in eternity anyway. How can I help?" She spent 8 years in Tanzania, teaching women to sew and catechizing them before being dragged home kicking and screaming for treatment of a lung ailment. We can make an impact wherever God directs us. For most of us, that's in our home community, but God calls some people to serve elsewhere.