"Five Israeli talking points, debunked".... Interesting

[Jedidiah]

See, when I say something like that, I provide evidence to back it up

That is false. You give us no evidence to back up the " Israel is gratuitously murdering noncombatants" claim. All I have heard from you is the leftist propaganda that ignores the on the ground situation.

[rogue06]

Gaza conflict: UN accuses Israel over Jabaliya attack

Israel attacked a UN-run school housing refugees in Gaza despite warnings that civilians were there, the UN has said.

UN spokesman Chris Gunness said "the world stands disgraced" by the attack, in which 15 died and dozens were hurt.

The Israeli military said an initial inquiry suggested soldiers responded to mortar fire. The military says it is now holding a partial, four-hour humanitarian ceasefire.

Some 1,200 Palestinians and 55 Israelis have been killed in the conflict.

Most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians.

Fifty-three Israeli soldiers have been killed along with two civilians. A Thai worker in Israel has also died.

That's 1200 mostly civilian deaths. It's kind of like bringing down 4 MH17's and saying "Whoops."

Most of the world thinks this is outrageous. American support is going to have negative effects on our reputation, which seems to impact a large constituent of TWebbers only when they can blame Obama.

Versus 56 mostly military deaths, just about all of which followed the recent civilian slaughters.

That's over 20 to 1, just counting bodies, or call it 300 to 1 just counting civilians.

As ever, Jesse

"1200 mostly civilian deaths."

Call me cynical but I tend to take such statistics with a grain of salt.

I remember a news story from the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon in response to attacks where a reporter realized that the bodies of the same victims were showing up in pictures from multiple sites. It appears they were being hauled around to make the civilian casualty look considerably higher.

Then there was the funeral of a Palestinian civilian that was filmed by an Israeli helicopter that when the participants spotted it started to scatter -- including the corpse who got up and ran off!

And during the early part of of our excursion into Iraq the son of a recently deceased Shiite leader (the name escapes me) occupied a mosque and prepared for an attack by American forces. Only the attack never came. Residents started noticing an awful stench emanating from the mosque and it was discovered that since they were expecting an imminent attack the Shiites inside had emptied nearby morgues and filled the building with the corpses of the recently deceased. Why? So that the bodies could be counted as civilian casualties resulting from the American strike on the mosque.

Now, to be clear, I am sure that the number of civilians killed has indeed been high, but what the actual number is seems to me, given the history displayed, to be reasonably open to question

[John Reece]

Son of Hamas founder Mosab Hassan Yousef says Israel is fighting for the world

I think I recall someone in this thread referring to Hamas as a national movement.

The son of a founder and the current leader of Hamas says that Hamas in not a national movement.

This son of a founder and the current leader of Hamas himself began as a member of Hamas.

AWESOME: Mark Levin interviews Son of Hamas founder Mosab Hassan Yousef who says Israel is fighting for the world.

Mark Levin interviewed the son of the founder of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef, tonight on his show to get more insight into the terrorist group that runs the Gaza Strip.

Yousef made it crystal clear that Hamas doesn’t just want to destroy the state of Israel, but wants a global caliphate on every inch of land around the world, and he said they will kill as many palestinians as they need to accomplish this goal.

Yousef said the fight that Israel is waging against Hamas isn’t just for their own existence, but for the entire world. He emphasizes that now is the time to support Israel in defeating this evil.

Watch:

[Jedidiah]

Yes, that's the way Hamas wants it to look. One side of this conflict just wants to be left alone, and goes to the trouble of giving multiple warnings to evacuate before they attack. The other side uses the warnings to ensure that civilians will be present nonetheless, and attacks from places where civilians are likely to be present like hospitals, schools, and mosques. Israel is thus presented with a Hobson's choice of allowing the attacks to go unanswered or killing civilians.

True this.

[Jedidiah]

So it's a smear, and you know it's a smear, and you're going to do it anyway?

No just an accurate statement.

Nah, if it's important to differentiate between run-of-the-mill Christians and abortion clinic bombers, it's important to do the same with run-of-the-mill Muslims and bus bombers. "Just more extreme" is a sword that cuts a lot of ways.

Which is completely off the point.

Hamas is godawful, but I'm reminded of one of Dan Rather's more famous gaffes. No, not that one! The one where he was sued successfully for defaming the tobacco companies. No matter how foul an industry, or organization, might be, it's still important to keep the accusations honest.

And CP's accusation was completely accurate.

[Darth Executor]

There is a kernel of truth to what he's saying. Even conservative Christians (notably Matthew Flannagan) have noted that the internal evidence of Joshua and Judges suggest there is some level of hyperbole; but those looking for an outright pacifistic interpretation will find no shelter there.

The issue isn't even a pacifistic interpretation, but God ordering the intentional killing of people Just War says you're not supposed to intentionally kill. It wasn't even collateral damage, by modern international standards it was a war crime.

[Cow Poke]

So it's a smear, and you know it's a smear, and you're going to do it anyway?

No, No, and No.

[Cow Poke]

Nah, if it's important to differentiate between run-of-the-mill Christians and abortion clinic bombers, it's important to do the same with run-of-the-mill Muslims and bus bombers. "Just more extreme" is a sword that cuts a lot of ways.

Here's where you really blow it, and you know you blow it, but you're gonna do it anyway (fun, isn't it?) --- Comparing Hamas to ISIS is NOT like comparing run-of-the mill Christians to abortion clinic bombers for a whole bunch of reasons, the first of which is that the VAST MAJORITY -- almost without exception -- of "run-of-the-mill Christians would loudly and clearly condemn the abortion clinic bombers. It's not unusual for the run-of-the-mill Muslim to CHEER the bus bomber.

[John Reece]

Comparing Hamas to ISIS is NOT like comparing run-of-the mill Christians to abortion clinic bombers [snip]

You are absolutely right Cow Poke.

Hamas is exactly like ISIS in that they both have the exact same ultimate goal: a world-wide Caliphate whereby the entire world is subjected to Sharia law, which is what ISIS is now imposing in Iraq.

For proof, listen to the eldest son of a founder and the current leader of Hamas here.

[Juvenal]

Yeah I have to agree with that. Take the Christian Identity nutjobs like Tim McVeigh who bombed the OK Federal Bldg. Or the KKK.

Props.

I would have to argue that on its core beliefs, those groups have to go against what Christ taught, while the very start of Islam was done by Mohammed terrorizing people, robbing caravans, and forcing everyone they came across to convert or die, and once they had a large enough base, attack Jerusalem, take it over and kill any Christians who wanted to make pilgramage to it. So in the case of "peaceful muslims" I would say they are the ones who are not living up to the "standards" of their religion (thank God) - the very opposite of Christianity and Christian hategroups and terrorists/racists.

[Psychic Missile]

It's a huge generalization that Hammas wants Jews dead?

Would Hamas be the only group of people to benefit from drinking water?[/QUOTE]

I dunno - the Nazis didn't seem to have that much difficulty. And if the Jews had fought back then, the Nazis would have lost no time saying "See - just goes to prove our point" ... that's what the extremists are doing in Palestine. If you think the point is over-stated, just look at that yellow arabic "N" and replace it with a yellow 6 point star.

I'm going off of the tactics used by Americans who ran occupied Iraq.

[Cow Poke]

Would Hamas be the only group of people to benefit from drinking water?

[Cerebrum123]

Props.



I think it's important to keep the history straight, too. The muslim conquests were just as awful as you describe, but they began after Muhammad died. The basic outline was: Mo kicked it, Mecca and bunches more cities rebelled, Mo's next-in-line brought them back by force, and finding force successful kept using it to continue the expansion. There was a good deal of raiding and cross-raiding during his lifetime, but his eventual success hinged on his reputation for compassion in victory and tolerance of everybody —*exceptin' them polytheists!

As far as convert or die? Well, Europe and the new world saw plenty of that, too. And if you contrast the muslim takeover of Jerusalem with the Christian takeover that preceded it, well, put it this way ... there weren't anywhere near so many living muslims leaving Jerusalem. Not that I blame Christians for that, either. Not as Christians, anyway. From over here, it looks to me like mercy is something that only happens when the rulers feel secure enough to give it. Suleiman felt secure in his victory. The First Crusaders, not so much. They were pretty much a spent force by the time they got there. I doubt you're talking about the first conquest by the muslims which was fairly bloodless by comparison.

In principle? I don't know. There's a lot of contradictions in the Qur'an and ahadith. It's just as easy to pull a mercy story out as it is to pull out a pillage and burn story. The Qur'an itself is fairly well split between the Meccan and Medinan ayah, and if you pick one and exclude the other, then reverse yourself, you can have it both ways.

As ever, Jesse

Which is where abrogation comes in. The later ayah canceling out the former. Mohammed practiced the "convert or die" method himself, and had somewhere between 600 and 900 Jews beheaded at one event. "Mo" was quite the terrorist himself, and going by the Sahih hadith, he admits to being made "victorious through terror".

[One Bad Pig]

Y'all do realize that ISIS is so far off the edge that even Al Qaeda has condemned them? Comparing them with Hamas is equivocation.

ISIS was part of Al Qaeda, and they had a falling out; of course they're going to condemn each other. Regardless, ISIS, Al Qaeda, and Hamas (among others) are dedicated to using violence and terror to advance their agendas, be it the spread of Islam or the destruction of Israel.

[Jedidiah]

Would Hamas be the only group of people to benefit from drinking water?

And this relates to the publicly stated aim of Hamas to kill all Jews how?