Remeber when Trump said that George Washington Statues were next?

[KingsGambit]

An iconic moment of the Revolutionary War was when the King George statue in New York was torn down, and nobody has forgotten who won that war. More recently, debates over the wisdom of the war aside, Iraqis celebrated when they tore down the Saddam Hussein statue, and the Bush administration played up that moment. It strikes me as odd that so many (who are often the same people who will insist that they are the party of Lincoln and that the Democrats were actually on the other side) feel an investment in these statues.

[Darth Ovious]

The monuments are not only about slavery but they are in idolization of men who betrayed their country in their fight for continuence of the practice. They were traitors. Why would we erect monuments in idolization of taitors?

The topic is a statue of Washington being pulled down and vandalised.

[Darth Ovious]

An iconic moment of the Revolutionary War was when the King George statue in New York was torn down, and nobody has forgotten who won that war. More recently, debates over the wisdom of the war aside, Iraqis celebrated when they tore down the Saddam Hussein statue, and the Bush administration played up that moment. It strikes me as odd that so many (who are often the same people who will insist that they are the party of Lincoln and that the Democrats were actually on the other side) feel an investment in these statues.

British guy here so forgive me if I'm not right on this. Aren't we talking about the founding fathers here? Isn't Washington a founding father? So it's a representation of the origins of the United States. Shouldn't this be something that all Americans are invested in to a degree? Also it depends on the person too I guess but there are plenty of moderates who are just proud to be American who don't necessarily align themselves with either party so I don't that means too much.

For me the statues mean something in concerns to a countries heritage. As being both Scottish and British then there are certainly statues that I would not want removed because they are reminders of past struggles that my country went through. Wither it would be statues of William Wallace, Robert the Bruce or Statues of Winston Churchill. They are there to remind the public what it means be Scottish/British.

[KingsGambit]

There seems to be some indiscriminate vandalism going on, such as the vandalism of the black infantry statue in Massachusetts. This seems indicative more of a lack of respect for the rule of law than it does any principled ideological stand, and should not be celebrated.

[JimL]

The topic is a statue of Washington being pulled down and vandalised.

I'm not at all familiar with that incident or who exactly is responsible, but any monuments civil war or otherwise, that are toppled by a mob is unwarranted, illegal and obviously wrong. I disagree with respect to Washington and the Founding fathers even though they themselves were slave holders, which agree with it or not, obviously not, was an accepted practice at the time. They were products of their time with respect to the institution of slavery, but they weren't traitors to this their country.

[Whateverman]

An iconic moment of the Revolutionary War was when the King George statue in New York was torn down, and nobody has forgotten who won that war. More recently, debates over the wisdom of the war aside, Iraqis celebrated when they tore down the Saddam Hussein statue, and the Bush administration played up that moment. It strikes me as odd that so many (who are often the same people who will insist that they are the party of Lincoln and that the Democrats were actually on the other side) feel an investment in these statues.

Am I correct in remembering that you theorize US conservatives dislike what they see as their waning influence in American society? I ask only for the sake of context...

I will probably keep harping on this for several more years, but the US is in the middle of a culture war. If one side does <X>, people on the other side will criticize them for it; it almost doesn't matter what <X> is. The left and right fundamentally oppose each other here.

Now, I'm not sure that necessarily applies to this case. George Washington is almost universally loved/treasured/lionized here, and to my eyes, people from both sides have criticized the vandalism done to this particular statue. Some of the conservative criticism of this vandalism seems over-stated, but whether that's due to the culture war, or the diminishing influence of conservativism on American culture, I'm not sure.

[KingsGambit]

British guy here so forgive me if I'm not right on this. Aren't we talking about the founding fathers here? Isn't Washington a founding father? So it's a representation of the origins of the United States. Shouldn't this be something that all Americans are invested in to a degree? Also it depends on the person too I guess but there are plenty of moderates who are just proud to be American who don't necessarily align themselves with either party so I don't that means too much.

For me the statues mean something in concerns to a countries heritage. As being both Scottish and British then there are certainly statues that I would not want removed because they are reminders of past struggles that my country went through. Wither it would be statues of William Wallace, Robert the Bruce or Statues of Winston Churchill. They are there to remind the public what it means be Scottish/British.

I was responding to JimL's post about the Confederates specifically. I do not understand that specific investment.

George Washington is a more unifying figure and traditionally, seeing him as a hero has not been particularly controversial in the US. He's usually the "safest" choice for best US president (I would say Lincoln but a number of libertarian types dislike him because he suspended habeas corpus). He voluntarily stepped down from power at the end of his term, and for a brand new nation, setting this precedent is not unimportant.

[Leonhard]

I'm against this act of vandalism. But the city could have taken it down preemptively to protect it.

[KingsGambit]

Am I correct in remembering that you theorize US conservatives dislike what they see as their waning influence in American society? I ask only for the sake of context...

I don't remember specifically saying that but I certainly would agree with that analysis. It would explain the reluctance to give any quarter on anything at all, and to choose battles which normally don't need to be picked.

I do wonder if Washington's lack of controversy will remain indefinitely. Christopher Columbus was probably once thought of as untouchable as well. The cultural situation is changing so rapidly and I can't say I have a good feel for where I think things will go.

[Darth Ovious]

I was responding to JimL's post about the Confederates specifically. I do not understand that specific investment.

George Washington is a more unifying figure and traditionally, seeing him as a hero has not been particularly controversial in the US. He's usually the "safest" choice for best US president (I would say Lincoln but a number of libertarian types dislike him because he suspended habeas corpus). He voluntarily stepped down from power at the end of his term, and for a brand new nation, setting this precedent is not unimportant.

Ah ok, thank you for the input.

[Darth Ovious]

I'm against this act of vandalism. But the city could have taken it down preemptively to protect it.

Churchill was all boarded up for a while at Parliament Square. The bordering has been removed now but I wonder for how long for.

https://news.sky.com/story/winston-c...ondon-12008569

Protective boarding around the statue of Sir Winston Churchill in central London has been removed for the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron.

The monument in Parliament Square was boarded up, along with several others, after it was sprayed with graffiti during a Black Lives Matter protest prompted by the death of George Floyd in the US.

[Leonhard]

Churchill was all boarded up for a while at Parliament Square. The bordering has been removed now but I wonder for how long for.

https://news.sky.com/story/winston-c...ondon-12008569

Telling you, if they wanna save the statues they should consider actions to do that.

[mossrose]

If they want to save the statues they should stop the rioting and prosecute the vandals.

[Leonhard]

If they want to save the statues they should stop the rioting and prosecute the vandals.

I'm talking about the ones who are responsible for and owns the statues. They ought to take them down, and after that we can either put them up again or consider moving them to museums.

[mossrose]

I'm talking about the ones who are responsible for and owns the statues. They ought to take them down, and after that we can either put them up again or consider moving them to museums.

The statues in question are on public property and should be protected by the rule of law, not the rule of the mob.