Coronavirus Outbreak...

[rogue06]

Nowhere near enough...

I'm figuring it's all the Nikes you want and season tickets to NBA games (whenever they start back up).

[seer]

seer - there is not point in this beyond what has already been said. It is foolish of you to take this tack of trying to lay blame. It serves no purpose.

Knowing what we know that China did of course they are to blame. It was not merely that they mismanaged this, but willfully allowed it to spread.

[carpedm9587]

While I disagree with seer about blaming Chinese culture (after all, should we blame our love of hamburgers and steaks for Mad Cow disease?) we should definitely not forget what the Chinese government did and just shrug it off.

So where do you see anyone "shrugging it off?" The Chinese government mismanaged the outbreak. They bear responsibility for it spreading so widely and so quickly because of their choices.

My only objection is to laying blame that goes beyond what the evidence supports, and using language that impugns all of the Chinese rather than specifically the Chinese government. That is also the reason I object to Trump's use of "Chinese Virus." But he's a troll...and he's out to sow divisiveness, so no big surprise there.

[seer]

So I now have read your article for the third time. Once again, it supports the assertion that they suppressed information, that they mismanaged the outbreak, but not the assertion that they "knowingly sent it to the U.S." If I'm going to lay blame, it will be for things I actually have evidence for. The Chinese government is well documented for being protective and for suppressing any form of dissent or any information that might cast a bad light on the government. It is just as likely that they were hyper focused on suppressing the news and trying to get the situation controlled so as not to "lose face" as it is that they "knowingly sent it to the U.S.." When there is more than one possible interpretation for a series of events, claiming you know which one it is without adequate evidence to back it up is simply biased thinking.

So what we know, from this article, is:

- China mismanaged their outbreak
- China suppressed news about the outbreak
- China denied the outbreak was a serious issue
- China jailed people who attempted to whistleblow

As a result, the outbreak spread. What we do not know is that they "knowingly sent it to the U.S."

So they did not know that their actions would allow the disease to spread?

But then again...

- Trump mismanaged the outbreak
- Trump made false announcements about the outbreak - spreading disinformation at a critical time, and tried to classify information related to the outbreak
- Trump denied the outbreak was a serious issue for weeks - and his lackeys/base parroted him
- Trump did NOT jail anyone that I know of.

What the heck, 3 out of 4 ain't bad...

I have been following this from day one and there was a question about what exactly this disease was and how serious it was. In those early days the only country that really had an understanding was China and they were not sharing that with the rest of the world.

ETA: I neglected to respond to the second part of your post. The new source you provided is MUCH better than Wikipedia. As far as I can tell, it is legit and I hold it in higher regard than abcnews. I accept that the flu started in Mexico, and thank you for providing the better data.

So generally it is not the US that is infecting the world, it is countries like China.

[simplicio]

Did you even read the box at the top of the page, Seer? My information came from here, and they cite the CDC as their source. I didn't try to chase it down on the CDC website, of course, but I have a bit more confidence in this source than a Wikipedia page with a warning at the top that says the page has numerous problems, including information accuracy.

And I did read the two links. They support the position that China mismanaged the outbreak and attempted to cover it up. They support the opinion that China permits food practices that are unsafe for its people. They do not support the opinion that they knowingly and intentionally sent it abroad to other countries. You have to add that interpretation to the articles.

The parentage and source of a flu strain is not always easy to decipher. There is evidence that the 2009 flu may have come from Indiana, others suggest California, other Mexico. And even others have suggested an escapee from a lab, other from a batch of vaccine. Zoonotic diseases are very difficult to trace, the 2009 was 'hotter' in humans than pigs, so it could have circulated a while unnoticed.

[seer]

The parentage and source of a flu strain is not always easy to decipher. There is evidence that the 2009 flu may have come from Indiana, others suggest California, other Mexico. And even others have suggested an escapee from a lab, other from a batch of vaccine. Zoonotic diseases are very difficult to trace, the 2009 was 'hotter' in humans than pigs, so it could have circulated a while unnoticed.

Nope we pretty much know where it came from now: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0627160935.htm

[firstfloor]

UK bars and restaurants ordered to close.

[seer]

UK bars and restaurants ordered to close.

Let me suggest liberal amounts of Laphroaig 10 as a home remedy...

[simplicio]

Nope we pretty much know where it came from now: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0627160935.htm

Okay. I skimmed it and the virus popped up in one small area and stayed there for a decade, in swine herds, then it jumped. But I really can't say I understand the science papers. I was referring to it parentage, which may have come from the US.

What if that flu happened to pop in in the US swine herd when it jumped to humans? The US herd is many times larger than Mexico's.

Do you think we should reduce our swine herd, quite eating pork or chicken because of the danger of disease? The 1918 Spanish flu likely originated in chickens, moved to pigs, then to men.

[seer]

Okay. I skimmed it and the virus popped up in one small area and stayed there for a decade, in swine herds, then it jumped. But I really can't say I understand the science papers. I was referring to it parentage, which may have come from the US.

What if that flu happened to pop in in the US swine herd when it jumped to humans? The US herd is many times larger than Mexico's.

Do you think we should reduce our swine herd, quite eating pork or chicken because of the danger of disease? The 1918 Spanish flu likely originated in chickens, moved to pigs, then to men.

The point is there is no evidence that the US ever infected the rest of the world with a deadly virus. We tend to be cleaner with better laws about handing food.

[rogue06]

So where do you see anyone "shrugging it off?" The Chinese government mismanaged the outbreak. They bear responsibility for it spreading so widely and so quickly because of their choices.

My only objection is to laying blame that goes beyond what the evidence supports, and using language that impugns all of the Chinese rather than specifically the Chinese government. That is also the reason I object to Trump's use of "Chinese Virus." But he's a troll...and he's out to sow divisiveness, so no big surprise there.

Even saying that it's the Wuhan coronavirus or Chinese coronavirus is strictly verboten and more than a few on the left won't even allow for discussions about the Chicom government's culpability in the matter seeking instead to blame Trump or preferring to be obsessed with declaring it's racist to make the connection.

I've proposed that we call it the Chicom coronavirus if folks insist on getting their knickers in a bunch over doing what we've done for numerous other diseases -- naming it after the area that it arose in or first became publicly known (like the Spanish Flu which did not originate in Spain)^[1].

The very fact that the MSM had no trouble whatsoever calling it the Wuhan coronavirus^[2] or Chinese coronavirus right up to the moment Trump did (I posted a link to a video to dozens of examples of them doing just that) reveals that this sudden sanctimoniousness has far more to do with hatred of Trump than any concern about supposed racism or xenophobia.




1. For instance

Source: Woke Media Calls Term �Wuhan Virus� Racist After Using Term �Wuhan Virus�

...

In fact, it is common practice for diseases to be named after populations or places of their origin such as the West Nile Virus from the West Nile district of Uganda, or the St. Louis Encephalitis. Other examples include Lyme Disease from Lyme, Connecticut, the Guinea Worm from the Guinea coast of West Africa, the German Measles for the German doctors who first described it, the Ross River Fever from Australia, the Omsk Hemorrhagic Fever from Omsk Russia, the Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever from the Ebola River, the Marburg Virus Disease from Marburg, Germany, the Lassa Fever from Lassa, Nigeria, La Crosse Encephalitis from La Crosse, Wisconsin, and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

They forgot the aforementioned Spanish Flu, as well as but not limited to, Aden Fever (a form of Dengue Fever named after the capital of Yemen), American trypanosomiasis (a.k.a. Chagas disease named after the American continents -- and Chagas was the name of a Brazilian doctor), Devonshire colic (named after the English county), Hantavirus (named after the Hantan river in South Korea), Hendra virus (named after a suburb of Brisbane, Australia), Japanese Encephalitis, Legionnaires' Disease (named after the 1976 American Legion convention in Philadelphia -- even the name of the bacteria responsible reflects this), MERS (Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome, which came from the Arabian Peninsula), Norovirus (named after the city of Norwalk, Ohio), Salonika or Salonica Fever (often called Trench Fever and named after Thessaloniki, Greece), Valley Fever (named after San Joaquin Valley of California), and Zika fever (named after the Ziika Forest of Uganda).

2. Apparently a Nexis search reveals that the term "Wuhan Virus" was often used by Asian news services.

[rogue06]

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Or Yellow Fever. Both names arose due to symptoms related to them and have nothing whatsoever to do with Africans or Asians. But in today's world folks would be spinning on their eyebrows spitting wooden nickels over such terms.

[Sparko]

Personally, I am optimistic that we will find an effective treatment soon and won't have to wait for the vaccine. Like Trump said, We have the minds and resources of the entire planet focused on solving this one singular problem right now.

[firstfloor]

Personally, I am optimistic that we will find an effective treatment soon and won't have to wait for the vaccine. Like Trump said, We have the minds and resources of the entire planet focused on solving this one singular problem right now.

Treatments at end:

From Royal College of Physicians, Edinburgh on COVID:

- Patients infectious 12h prior to symptom onset
- Time from exposure to symptoms is 5-6 days
- Symptom onset to recovery is 4-6 weeks
- Symptom onset to death is 2-4 weeks
- No longer infectious after 7 days
- Asymptomatic cases <1%
- 80% mild disease, 14% severe disease, 6% critical
- SOB predictor of severe disease
- Risk factors for severe disease are HTN and cardiovascular disease
- children are mildly affected but it is unclear how they are contributing to the spread
- ARDS main complication of severe disease, Septic shock and DIC less common
- Lab markers for poor outcome are high Troponin and D Dimer
- SOFA and CURB score predict poor outcome
- CT shows glass opacity and consolidation bilaterally, peripherally and confined to lower lobes
- Second wave in Winter 20/21 is likely

Tx:
Rimdesevir promising but needs trials
IL6 inhibitors being trialled
Vaccine could be developed using immunoglobulin from survivors

[oxmixmudd]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43395[/ATTACH]

Or Yellow Fever. Both names arose due to symptoms related to them and have nothing whatsoever to do with Africans or Asians. But in today's world folks would be spinning on their eyebrows spitting wooden nickels over such terms.

The hypocrisy of your position on this is highlighted by the thread next door: "Can we hate China now". This thread started by a Christian and highlights the reasons for the reactions. The problem with calling it the China virus is not because that is not it's geographic origin. It is because doing that is closely associated with racist and hateful rhetoric.