Confederate flags again

[simplicio]

Honestly, we all suffer from this problem to some degree. Because we don't take the time to ask questions. It's much easier to assume and then move on with that assumption.

Wow. You would take the time to ask questions if your tax dollars were spent to lionize Che!

Che was a Marxist, the butcher of La Cabana. Or maybe he could be remade into St Ernesto the Healer, the personification of Jesus' Beatitudes. Yes both views actually exist today.

[simplicio]

Unfortunately, there is a disconnect today. Many of the southerners that I know and grew up with in Richmond do not draw the tight parallel of Confederacy = slavery. It is seen as a derived cause for secession, but the actual war was fought to stay independent and self-determinant. There is really no way to convince them otherwise. It's a matter of perspective.

Personally, I think their bandying the flag about is idiotic. There are only 2 popular flags I respect, other than the state flags. The US flag, and the POW flag.

Self determination and independence for what end(s)?

All nations try to create a just society. Do you think the society envisioned in 1860s was just, or Christian?

[Bill the Cat]

Wow. You would take the time to ask questions if your tax dollars were spent to lionize Che!

I try not to jump to too many conclusions. In my younger years, that got me in some trouble with my kids' schools

Che was a Marxist, the butcher of La Cabana. Or maybe he could be remade into St Ernesto the Healer, the personification of Jesus' Beatitudes. Yes both views actually exist today.

How do we know what is being taught if we don't ask?

[Bill the Cat]

Self determination and independence for what end(s)?

To not have the Federal Government have near-absolute power over the states. So the states could determine for themselves how to run their own territory.

All nations try to create a just society. Do you think the society envisioned in 1860s was just, or Christian?

It's not fair to gauge other cultures based on our sense of morality. Heck, today's society isn't Christian.

[Bill the Cat]

Well, there's certainly no chance in bringing everyone on board. But the solution can't be to cede the propagation of Confederate ideology to a subset of people who will not or cannot acknowledge its clear and inseparable ties to slavery.

If we're talking about who has to suffer the use or loss of the Confederate flag and monuments, it's more just to stand with those who rightly understand the Confederate cause as one of slavery and stand against those who won't or can't acknowledge that.

--Sam

I disagree. Removing expression is a violation of a free society.

[Sam]

I disagree. Removing expression is a violation of a free society.

We're not talking about preventing people from adorning themselves with Confederate iconography, as far as I know. We're talking about the reasonable judgements to be made when people do so and whether our public places should be adorned with throwbacks to the Confederacy.

If, for example, a free society elects council members who vote to remove a statue or rename a park or take down a flag on public land because that thing no longer expresses the public sentiment, why is that a violation of a free society?

--Sam

[simplicio]

To not have the Federal Government have near-absolute power over the states. So the states could determine for themselves how to run their own territory.



It's not fair to gauge other cultures based on our sense of morality. Heck, today's society isn't Christian.

So You fear the "near absolute power over the states" of the federal government in this democracy, greater than the fear of the state imposition of tyranny over black citizens.

[Bill the Cat]

So You fear the "near absolute power over the states" of the federal government in this democracy, greater than the fear of the state imposition of tyranny over black citizens.

I don't "fear" anything. My ancestors fought with the Union.

[Bill the Cat]

We're not talking about preventing people from adorning themselves with Confederate iconography, as far as I know.

Some are. There is a pretty large contingent here in Richmond who think it should be illegal to have any Confederate iconography outside of museums.

We're talking about the reasonable judgements to be made when people do so and whether our public places should be adorned with throwbacks to the Confederacy.

I think this is primarily an American problem. I don't see France removing throwbacks to their monarchy or dictatorships from public places.

If, for example, a free society elects council members who vote to remove a statue or rename a park or take down a flag on public land because that thing no longer expresses the public sentiment, why is that a violation of a free society?

--Sam

Personally, I think they should just have declared the park an "outside museum". Same with Richmond's Monument Avenue. That way, the statues stay and others can be added. Removing them merely silences one side of a discussion that still needs to be had. Contextualizing these statues, both as examples of the period's art style, and as reminders of our past history, should be the solution.

And as an aside, I'm sure you've been told that there is a statue of Lenin in Seattle, yes?

[simplicio]

I don't "fear" anything. My ancestors fought with the Union.

Perhaps you could explain your position then. I worded that poorly, I meant "fear" in the sense of value systems.

Earlier you expressed the idea that (some) southerners saw the Civil War as about self determination and independence, to prevent the weight of the federal government to have "near absolute power over the states".

I think that view does some up the attitude of those who advocate the Confederate flag, it is related to states rights.

Should states have the liberty, the license, to enact unjust laws?

[Bill the Cat]

Perhaps you could explain your position then. I worded that poorly, I meant "fear" in the sense of value systems.

Earlier you expressed the idea that (some) southerners saw the Civil War as about self determination and independence, to prevent the weight of the federal government to have "near absolute power over the states".

I think that view does some up the attitude of those who advocate the Confederate flag, it is related to states rights.

Should states have the liberty, the license, to enact unjust laws?

Of course. Because who is the final arbiter of what is "unjust"? Again, it's how liberty works. You must afford the opportunity to misuse freedom in order to guarantee its free exercise.

[Sam]

Some are. There is a pretty large contingent here in Richmond who think it should be illegal to have any Confederate iconography outside of museums.



I think this is primarily an American problem. I don't see France removing throwbacks to their monarchy or dictatorships from public places.



Personally, I think they should just have declared the park an "outside museum". Same with Richmond's Monument Avenue. That way, the statues stay and others can be added. Removing them merely silences one side of a discussion that still needs to be had. Contextualizing these statues, both as examples of the period's art style, and as reminders of our past history, should be the solution.

And as an aside, I'm sure you've been told that there is a statue of Lenin in Seattle, yes?

[Bill the Cat]

If the "discussion that needs to be had" is whether Confederate generals should be honored by public memorials erected in the early 1900s during heightened Klan activity throughout the South, I think we can do without it.

I disagree completely. Contextualizing them is how we should move forward.

We don't have any public memorials to the American Bund.

If I recall from my last visit, there is a small display at the National Holocaust Museum in DC. They have several films on it at their site:

https://collections.ushmm.org/search...Film%20Keyword

I mean the overthrown monarchs and dictators, not Nazi sympathizers, although Macron called him a hero

As an aside, NY City DOES have a memorial to him...

https://patch.com/new-york/downtown-...adway-sidewalk

The Lenin statue is on private property and I find it similarly offensive.

--Sam

That's just one of many that we have in the states.

[Sam]

I disagree completely. Contextualizing them is how we should move forward.



If I recall from my last visit, there is a small display at the National Holocaust Museum in DC. They have several films on it at their site:

https://collections.ushmm.org/search...Film%20Keyword



I mean the overthrown monarchs and dictators, not Nazi sympathizers.

As an aside, NY City DOES have a memorial to him...

https://patch.com/new-york/downtown-...adway-sidewalk

You're equivocating between memorials in honor of Confederate generals, like Lee, with exhibits as part of the National Holocaust museum?

As bad as I am with geography, I am relatively certain that NYC is not in France.

I am aware of zero public monuments or memorials to Lenin; if they exist, I would support their removal as well. But they don't exist.

--Sam

[simplicio]

Of course. Because who is the final arbiter of what is "unjust"? Again, it's how liberty works. You must afford the opportunity to misuse freedom in order to guarantee its free exercise.

The final arbiter on justice is the Divine Lawgiver. I thought that went without saying.