A Guy Beat, Raped, Shot, and Buried Alive a 19 Year Old Girl. Guess Who's The Victim?

[seer]

Dang, seer. You're really out for blood here, aren't you?

No, like I said I don't think it is necessary for a state to institute the death penalty. I'm just tired of people trying to frame it as unjust or immoral - it is neither.

[seer]

Arguing from silence is a fallacy - no mention doesn't mean no use so that's nonsense. Common practice is your argument, not mine - I only need show that they could prevent error - and I've done so. You are the one grasping at straws by pretending that it had to be 'common practice' (most modern suspects are eliminated well before trial - it would be silly to assume that wasn't true in the OT as well).

There is still zero evidence that it was commonly used. If you are claiming that for the Urim and Thummim then it is on you to prove it. Can you show two or three capital cases where this was used? one capital case?

[Paprika]

The OT had a BIG advantage - they could call on God Himself to judge the matter so there could be no mistake.

Did they ever do so? Or is it something you prefer to have happened?

[Teallaura]

I'm not saying that God does not forgive - remember for instance that David's child was killed for his sin. And you are speaking of men who repented. And remember I deserve death.

Oh no - you do NOT get to do this. David committed premeditated murder via conspiracy (arguably, not even conspiracy since his orders directly resulted in the man's death) and when confronted, he repented AND WAS NOT PUT TO DEATH. You kept saying there were no second chances - you don't get to back track and claim you meant 'without repentance'. Wouldn't help you anyway - Moses just ran for it, he didn't repent and Scripture records no repentance on his part prior to the burning bush (since you insist on mention in Scripture as a criteria - yes, it's STILL an argument from silence and stupid).

Only premeditated murderers are specifically excluded from being able to 'catch hold of the horns of the Altar' for sanctuary. Either show another exception or admit you were wrong.

[Teallaura]

Did they ever do so? Or is it something you prefer to have happened?

Scripture mentions the appeal so yes, it appears to have been something they did.

[Teallaura]

There is still zero evidence that it was commonly used. If you are claiming that for the Urim and Thummim then it is on you to prove it. Can you show two or three capital cases where this was used? one capital case?

Which doesn't REFUTE MY PREMISE AT ALL. Commonality is your case - the mere ability is sufficient to make mine.

You keep arguing as if I were using your case - I'm not. Pay attention to what I actually said - commonality is only important to you and it honestly shouldn't be. You're mistaking an appeal for the trial.

[Paprika]

Scripture mentions the appeal so yes, it appears to have been something they did.

Could you provide a reference?

[Bill the Cat]

What the government does on our behalf in this respect should be done in broad daylight and in view of all. To take a human life is a serious thing, and, as far as I'm concerned, we should avoid it unless it is absolutely necessary.

I believe intentionally taking another human life with no warrant to do so is an applicable "necessary" situation. I have no problem with public execution.

[Teallaura]

No, like I said I don't think it is necessary for a state to institute the death penalty. I'm just tired of people trying to frame it as unjust or immoral - it is neither.

Then for pity's sake PAY ATTENTION. I argued that the 'DP as immoral' case is weak - I NEVER claimed the DP was immoral. Heck, Spart didn't even claim that and he's closer to that position than I am.

My claim, which you haven't even tried to refute, is that WHEN the Accused is TRULY INNOCENT, THEN execution is both immoral and unjust.

[Teallaura]

Could you provide a reference?

Sorry, one at a time. I don't have time for this.

It is probably in Leviticus but I can't say for certain - might be Exodus or Numbers.

[Bill the Cat]

I think you'd have to show a high enough probability of (unpreventable?) escape before declaring they cannot be safely be imprisoned. However, I'm not against the idea of erring on the side of caution in specific cases. Is it worse to kill an innocent by accident or to indirectly cause the deaths of many more because you didn't properly contain the threat? Can you even compare the two?

Hey Carr, I don't think escaping is the only circumstance that puts others in peril. The prison population itself is in possible jeopardy too. The possibility of a serial killer murdering another inmate must be considered.

[seer]

Which doesn't REFUTE MY PREMISE AT ALL. Commonality is your case - the mere ability is sufficient to make mine.

You keep arguing as if I were using your case - I'm not. Pay attention to what I actually said - commonality is only important to you and it honestly shouldn't be. You're mistaking an appeal for the trial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshir...vasion_murders

Ok, so you can't find even one capital case. But let me ask you something Teallaura, this happened in my state not far from my town. These two men, Hayes and Komisarjevsky raped a mother and two beautiful daughters, then murdered them by burning them alive - they were caught red-handed leaving the house. There is no question of their guilt. Why shouldn't they be put to death?

[seer]

Hey Carr, I don't think escaping is the only circumstance that puts others in peril. The prison population itself is in possible jeopardy too. The possibility of a serial killer murdering another inmate must be considered.

Yes, and like I said I got to know many Correction Officers and they told me that the lifers are the most dangerous inmates - to them.

[seer]

My claim, which you haven't even tried to refute, is that WHEN the Accused is TRULY INNOCENT, THEN execution is both immoral and unjust.

And so is putting an innocent man in prison for life. Nothing we do is full-proof, but that doesn't mean we don't try.

[Teallaura]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshir...vasion_murders

Ok, so you can't find even one capital case. But let me ask you something Teallaura, this happened in my state not far from my town. These two men, Hayes and Komisarjevsky raped a mother and two beautiful daughters, then murdered them by burning them alive - they were caught red-handed leaving the house. There is no question of their guilt. Why shouldn't they be put to death?

I don't need to - God gave them the ability so it's pretty stupid to assume they never used it. You can argue that moronically if you like, but I won't.

I never argued the DP was immoral in the case of the GUILTY.

Lock them up and throw away the key - use the money you'd otherwise spend to kill them to increase the police protection, 911 call centers or anything else that might reasonably prevent such a tragedy. Wasting money and resources killing losers accomplishes nothing of any tangible benefit (deterrence being intangible at best - non-existent at worst).

Pay attention.