A Guy Beat, Raped, Shot, and Buried Alive a 19 Year Old Girl. Guess Who's The Victim?

[seanD]

????

Exactly what you underlined. Did God use Rome to punish Jesus for wrongdoing. Obviously not.

I don't really want to get into a whole thing. My point was that the discussion of capital punishment shouldn't be done ina biblical context, because it will just bring up more complications than it will solve.

[seer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

Ever heard of them?

Yes I have - now where are they use for all capital cases? And remember capital cases required two eye-witnesses - which would be unnecessary if they were just consulting Urim and Thummim.

[Teallaura]

Teallaura, what are you on about? There is no evidence in the OT that the Hebrews consulted God on every capital case. And I'm not saying that a State has to institute the death penalty - only that it is not unjust or immoral if they do (in particular cases).

The biggest weakness of the morality case is that the DP is only moral IF the accused is truly guilty. Executing the innocent is immoral and unjust - so if you cannot eliminate the possibility of human error, you cannot make the 'the DP is always moral' case.

The converse is also true - if the accused is truly guilty, you cannot make the 'DP is always immoral' case.

[Spartacus]

No it is not the only exception. Show me where this is applied to the adultery or sabbath breaker or homosexual.

There are numerous psalms in which the psalmist seeks sanctuary from persecutors in God's presence. Does that mean that the psalmist is confessing to manslaughter?

[Teallaura]

No it is not the only exception. Show me where this is applied to the adulterer or sabbath breaker or homosexual.

Show me where they are excluded - I cited the only verse that indicates an exception to the practice - the burden is now yours to show that there were other exceptions. Good luck with that.

[seer]

Show me where they are excluded - I cited the only verse that indicates an exception to the practice - the burden is now yours to show that there were other exceptions. Good luck with that.

What are you talking about? It is not my job to prove your point.

From your link:

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Where is the second chance here?

[Teallaura]

Yes I have - now where are they use for all capital cases? And remember capital cases required two eye-witnesses - which would be unnecessary if they were just consulting Urim and Thummim.

You're assuming facts not in evidence - no one said anything about 'only' consulting God. The point - which you've offered no counter to - is that they had the ability to ensure that the accused were indeed truly guilty before putting anyone to death and we do not possess that capability. The argument using the OT to support modern use of the DP fails right there.

Also, using two witnesses allows the judges to eliminate obviously false cases without having to go to God for the matter - in such cases dismissal would probably have occurred first. Saves lots of unnecessary court time by screening out the frivolous and malicious.

[seer]

There are numerous psalms in which the psalmist seeks sanctuary from persecutors in God's presence. Does that mean that the psalmist is confessing to manslaughter?

There are about 16 behaviors in the OT that incurred the DP. Show me from the texts where they were offered second chances.

[Teallaura]

What are you talking about? It is not my job to prove your point.

From your link:

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Where is the second chance here?

1) Joseph's brothers.
2) Can't think of a case where this ever gets used.

Regardless, Scripture is not intended for hyperliteralism. As for second chances: Nineveh, Moses, Arron, Miriam, David, Adam, - oh heck, it's just about 'pick anyone mentioned in the OT' so obviously God DOES give second chances in the OT.

It IS your burden when you make a counter-claim. You stated that there are other exceptions yet I cited the only one. Now prove that the other cases are exceptions since that it YOUR premise.

[seer]

You're assuming facts not in evidence - no one said anything about 'only' consulting God. The point - which you've offered no counter to - is that they had the ability to ensure that the accused were indeed truly guilty before putting anyone to death and we do not possess that capability. The argument using the OT to support modern use of the DP fails right there.

Also, using two witnesses allows the judges to eliminate obviously false cases without having to go to God for the matter - in such cases dismissal would probably have occurred first. Saves lots of unnecessary court time by screening out the frivolous and malicious.

No Teallaura, there is zero evidence that consulting the Urim and Thummim was even a common practice for deciding a capital case. As a matter of fact after the death of David there is no mention of them being used again - and the death penalty was still in force. You are just grabbing for straws.

[Teallaura]

There are about 16 behaviors in the OT that incurred the DP. Show me from the texts where they were offered second chances.

1) David
2) Adonijiah
3) Moses

[Carrikature]

I think you're right that firm criteria are difficult to articulate. When is a person so dangerous that they cannot safely be imprisoned without putting the safety of the community at risk? That's not something that can be easily measured, and it has less to do with what the person has already done than it does with what they are likely to do if they continue to live.

I think you'd have to show a high enough probability of (unpreventable?) escape before declaring they cannot be safely be imprisoned. However, I'm not against the idea of erring on the side of caution in specific cases. Is it worse to kill an innocent by accident or to indirectly cause the deaths of many more because you didn't properly contain the threat? Can you even compare the two?

[Teallaura]

No Teallaura, there is zero evidence that consulting the Urim and Thummim was even a common practice for deciding a capital case. As a matter of fact after the death of David there is no mention of them being used again - and the death penalty was still in force. You are just grabbing for straws.

Arguing from silence is a fallacy - no mention doesn't mean no use so that's nonsense. Common practice is your argument, not mine - I only need show that they could prevent error - and I've done so. You are the one grasping at straws by pretending that it had to be 'common practice' (most modern suspects are eliminated well before trial - it would be silly to assume that wasn't true in the OT as well).

[Spartacus]

Dang, seer. You're really out for blood here, aren't you?

[seer]

1) Joseph's brothers.
2) Can't think of a case where this ever gets used.

Regardless, Scripture is not intended for hyperliteralism. As for second chances: Nineveh, Moses, Arron, Miriam, David, Adam, - oh heck, it's just about 'pick anyone mentioned in the OT' so obviously God DOES give second chances in the OT.

It IS your burden when you make a counter-claim. You stated that there are other exceptions yet I cited the only one. Now prove that the other cases are exceptions since that it YOUR premise.

I'm not saying that God does not forgive - remember for instance that David's child was killed for his sin. And you are speaking of men who repented. And remember I deserve death.