Originally posted by Tassman
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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, actually Tass had it right all along, i.e. that Buttigieg isn't a real christian according to you, which really is all that you have been arguing.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThe bolded has been part of my point all along. Philo was writing for a Roman/Hellenistic audience, so he would have had reason to mention and defend the Jewish prohibitions against homosexual relationships. For Jesus, who would have been primarily "preaching to the choir" on this issue, there would have been no need what so ever for Him to mention anything against it. The very fact that Jesus never mentions homosexual practices in a positive light when the prevailing opinion was against it in the areas where He was active is most reasonably seen as tacit support for the prohibition, especially in view of the fact that He had such a high regard for the Jewish Law, and never mentioned anything about taking exception to the prohibitions about homosexual relationships in that very same Law.
If Jesus wanted to He would have had ample opportunity to say something to the effect of condoning same-sex relationships, but unfortunately for your unstated position that Jesus might have been fine with having sex with people of the same gender such affirmations are noticeably absent.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhich is strange since you'd think you'd run into a "the bible says" argument once in awhile on a Christian forum.
This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian,"
I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."
This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
A) the issue of Tassman's unproven claim Buttigieg himself claimed to be a "practicing Christian" is not a "what the Bible says" issue.
2) the issue of whether or not Buttigieg actually IS a "practicing Christian" very much involves "what the Bible says".
You tended, in this thread, to dabble in both.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian," I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."
This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
And if you don't want to argue about "what the bible says" about various topics then you are probably on the wrong forum since that is pretty much what THEOLOGYWEB is about. Sounds more like a convenient way to dismiss your opponent's argument than anything else.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, let's sum things up again.
As to Tassman's claim that Buttigieg, himself, claimed to be a practicing Christian, here's all the evidence so far....
Lemme know if I left anything out.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post636872
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo this is interesting - and since it's not a continuation of "Is Buttigieg as practicing Christian," I'll respond. I do indeed "run into them," I just don't engage in them anymore. When someone defends a position they have with "the bible says," the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, "isn't that nice."
This is one of several perspectives that has changed since I came back to TWeb. I actually used to engage in them regularly. It took me a while to realize I was engaging in a pointless exercise and disengage. The same is true of debating specific points of morality with a "bible-based" moralist, though I have to admit that is a very recent awakening on my part. Last few weeks, actually. I had not thought through my own beliefs about morality to fully appreciate the futility of that exercise.
Also, I find the statement, "the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, 'isn't that nice'" disgustingly condescending.
Could you (and here I'm talking to my fellow Bible-believing brothers and sisters) ever imagine going to a Muslim forum with the attitude that "I'm not going to engage with Koran-based moralists...?" How utterly ridiculous.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is a discussion I am NOT getting into. I don't do "but the bible says" arguments.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI find it incredibly bizarre that one would regularly post in a Christian forum, and yet deign not to engage with Christians who will, undoubtedly, at some point, connect their worldview back to scripture. Every Christian on this forum (that I know of) bases at least some aspect of their moral worldview on the Bible. And probably a great deal of their moral worldview, at that.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostAlso, I find the statement, "the best I can do is nod, smile, and perhaps respond, 'isn't that nice'" disgustingly condescending.
But you are right. I was being flip. I apologize. The basic point is, there's nothing much for me to say in response to those kinds of statements.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostCould you (and here I'm talking to my fellow Bible-believing brothers and sisters) ever imagine going to a Muslim forum with the attitude that "I'm not going to engage with Koran-based moralists...?" How utterly ridiculous.
1) Convince them that "valuing god" is not a very good choice. I rate that "highly unlikely."
B) Convince them that the bible is NOT the inerrant word of this god. I rate that "highly unlikely"
III) Convince them that they are interpreting the bible incorrectly. That gets everyone caught up in the word dance, and justifying why this passage actually means that. And that discussion is being had on collection of books that has hundreds of translations, for which we have no originals, for which we know relatively little about authorship, written 2000-3500 years ago in a different culture, and many of the books written well after the events they purport to record. I rate that "essentially impossible." We have a U.S. Constitution. By comparison, we have the original documents, we know who wrote them AND have a body of surrounding work that they also wrote, not to mention writings from those that influenced them, it was written about 250 years ago in this culture (albeit it has morphed significantly since then), and it was written in response to current issues of the day. Despite all those advantages, there is STILL wide disagreement on "what it means" and "what was intended." Coming to agreement on the bible is, IMO, an exercise in futility. Even Christians cannot agree on that, or there wouldn't be some 2500 sects (and counting).
I find my position to be fairly rational. I understand you disagree.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, the "ongoing" was based on Tassman's false claim that Buttigieg HIMSELF claimed to be a "practicing Christian".
So, interesting point ---
A) the issue of Tassman's unproven claim Buttigieg himself claimed to be a "practicing Christian" is not a "what the Bible says" issue.
This particular threat-within-a-thread originated with a statement you made, to which I responded, "I don't do "what the bible means" discussions."
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post2) the issue of whether or not Buttigieg actually IS a "practicing Christian" very much involves "what the Bible says".
You tended, in this thread, to dabble in both.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't recall ever saying it was...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThen why do you continue to argue about morality with seer in nearly every thread?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd if you don't want to argue about "what the bible says" about various topics then you are probably on the wrong forum since that is pretty much what THEOLOGYWEB is about. Sounds more like a convenient way to dismiss your opponent's argument than anything else.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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