So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Cow Poke]

I know - but when dealing with obvious morons - you kind of have to condescend.

wow - the facade has come off, and you're no different than Tassman or JimL.

That is seriously disappointing to me.

[carpedm9587]

wow

OK - I'm done.

Sorry, CP - but after a while it gets tiresome. The condescending emojis. The misrepresentation of most of what I say. The assumption of worst intent. It gets tedious. And all the while the people engaging in the childish responses proudly profess their "christian morality" and "love of god" and claim to follow a man who once apparently said, "love your neighbor as yourself." Civil discourse is next to impossible, because virtually every post is treated with ridicule and condescension. And if there is a worst way to interpret anything I've written - I can be assured it will be taken. I decided to join in for a bit. Sorry if you take objection - but what's good for the goose should be good for the gander, don't you think?

At the end of the day, I suppose I should just move on. I don't belong here. I wanted to listen to and engage with people outside my bubble. I guess I've accomplished that. I'll have to give it some thought.

[carpedm9587]

wow - the facade has come off, and you're no different than Tassman or JimL.

That is seriously disappointing to me.

I see you amended the post. As I said in the other thread - on what basis do you think my previous posting is the "facade" and what I have done here is the "real thing?" You have no basis for that assumption. It is just as likely that this is the "facade," and what I usually post is the "real thing."

But I think you can set your disappointment aside, my friend. You are as capable of descending into the muck as the rest of them - and do it regularly. With me it is a bit more rare - but even then I get the benefit of condescending emojis and sarcastic responses. So don't go all "holier than thou" on me. You're no angel either.

[Cow Poke]

I see you amended the post. As I said in the other thread - on what basis do you think my previous posting is the "facade" and what I have done here is the "real thing?" You have no basis for that assumption. It is just as likely that this is the "facade," and what I usually post is the "real thing."

But I think you can set your disappointment aside, my friend. You are as capable of descending into the muck as the rest of them - and do it regularly. With me it is a bit more rare - but even then I get the benefit of condescending emojis and sarcastic responses. So don't go all "holier than thou" on me. You're no angel either.

I don't pretend to be above the fray --- never have made any such claim. You have. And I have ALWAYS treated you with respect, even 'footnoting' when I called you names that it was in fun, and I didn't mean any of it.

[Mountain Man]

Your clueless opinion is duly noted...

Your hand wave is duly noted.

[carpedm9587]

I don't pretend to be above the fray --- never have made any such claim. You have. And I have ALWAYS treated you with respect, even 'footnoting' when I called you names that it was in fun, and I didn't mean any of it.

CP - I have NEVER made the claim that I am above the fray. Not once. But I have been accused of making that claim numerous times.

What I AM guilty of is calling for all of us to be "above the fray." Somehow, that translates into "Michel think's he's better than everyone," and I get accused of claiming I am "above the fray" and "virtue signaling" and all of the rest of the crap you guys like to toss. So I decided to toss a little crap of my own.

Yes- we have had our fun exchanges. I amnot referring to those because I've given as well as taken in those. They are fun.

But if you think for one second that your responses to me and about me have "always been respectful," you are mistaken. Yes - you do the condescension and denigration to a lesser degree than others - but you still often manage to dig when you disagree. It is ironic that I went off on you of all people - because you are actually one of the better ones here - and the only one to ever speak in my defense. It is frankly for that reason that I thought I had a prayer of getting through - ironically enough.

If I had gone off like this on anyone else (MM, Sparko, Pix, OBP, BCT, etc.) it would have been license for them to response in kind and would just have augured into the muck.

I'm tired. I'm going to call it a night.

As I said in the other post - I apologize for the name calling - and the condescension. I am aware that you are perhaps the least deserving of it here. I was trying to make a point. Nothing else was getting through.

[Cow Poke]

CP - I have NEVER made the claim that I am above the fray. Not once. But I have been accused of making that claim numerous times.

What I AM guilty of is calling for all of us to be "above the fray." Somehow, that translates into "Michel think's he's better than everyone," and I get accused of claiming I am "above the fray" and "virtue signaling" and all of the rest of the crap you guys like to toss. So I decided to toss a little crap of my own.

Yes- we have had our fun exchanges. I amnot referring to those because I've given as well as taken in those. They are fun.

But if you think for one second that your responses to me and about me have "always been respectful," you are mistaken. Yes - you do the condescension and denigration to a lesser degree than others - but you still often manage to dig when you disagree. It is ironic that I went off on you of all people - because you are actually one of the better ones here - and the only one to ever speak in my defense. It is frankly for that reason that I thought I had a prayer of getting through - ironically enough.

If I had gone off like this on anyone else (MM, Sparko, Pix, OBP, BCT, etc.) it would have been license for them to response in kind and would just have augured into the muck.

I'm tired. I'm going to call it a night.

As I said in the other post - I apologize for the name calling - and the condescension. I am aware that you are perhaps the least deserving of it here. I was trying to make a point. Nothing else was getting through.

I really have nothing to say.

[Tassman]

Actually - I think he said it's because they let him... so he's innocent. Honest!

Of course he's innocent. He's a 'real man' and he knows that deep down they want it.

wow - the facade has come off, and you're no different than Tassman or JimL.

He should be so lucky.

[Cow Poke]

wow - the facade has come off, and you're no different than Tassman or JimL.

I sincerely apologize for this remark. There is no way on God's green earth that Carpe could sink that low. As far as I know, unlike the Shirk brothers, Carpe has never lied to or about me.

[Sparko]

In the minds of the perpetrator, Sparko. One needs only to watch Trump as he made his boasts to see that he saw himself as "superior" and bragging about his capabilities with women. Weinstein leveraged power. Essentially - male puffery at the expense of women is a significant part of "toxic masculinity."

What does it matter what a criminal thinks about his own acts? If a murderer thinks he is manly for murdering people, does that make murder a part of masculinity? Your argument makes no sense.

And yet they are found widely among men.

so what? I can list a ton of stereotypes and bad behavior among women. That doesn't mean that it is part of femininity. Is prostitution part of femininity? It is found widely among women.

The behavior is simply men who do not know what it truly means to be "masculine." They have perverted it. But I don't have an issue with the term. "Toxic water" is simply water that has been poisoned. It does not imply that all water is bad. "Toxic gas" is simply any form of gas that is harmful. It doesn't mean all gas is bad. Likewise, "toxic masculinity" is masculinity that has been perverted. It does not mean all masculine things are toxic.

And when they start encroaching on innocent behaviors and calling them toxic? Like protecting women, or being chivalrous? The term was initially widely used by feminists to denigrate men. It is a broad brush attack on males.

[Sparko]

Dear Abby...

When I am on an elevator, I always let the ladies get off first.

Am I toxic?

[carpedm9587]

What does it matter what a criminal thinks about his own acts? If a murderer thinks he is manly for murdering people, does that make murder a part of masculinity? Your argument makes no sense.

I'm not making an argument. I'm providing a definition.

so what? I can list a ton of stereotypes and bad behavior among women. That doesn't mean that it is part of femininity. Is prostitution part of femininity? It is found widely among women.

Personally, I think femininity/feminism can be "toxic" as well. If I open a door for a woman as an act of courtesy, and I am rewarded with a "yet another male chauvinist pig," I tend to think of that as "toxic feminity/feminism." I have no idea what prostitution has to do with any of this.

And when they start encroaching on innocent behaviors and calling them toxic?

Then they are engaging in an injustice.

Like protecting women, or being chivalrous?

Again - the attitude behind the behavior is what makes the difference.

The term was initially widely used by feminists to denigrate men. It is a broad brush attack on males.

We appear to be back in a "I don't like the words" discussion. If you don't like the words, use different ones.

But I have to admit - for a group that considers the dislike of the left for particular words "political correctness," you guys sure get irritated at words on a regular basis. Toxic masculinity is offensive. White privilege is offensive. Inherent bias is offensive. Systemic racism is offensive.

It is my impression that the right is as "politically correct" as the left - the only difference is which words are "offensive."

[Bill the Cat]

Toxic masculinity is offensive. White privilege is offensive. Inherent bias is offensive. Systemic racism is offensive.

Considering there isn't any such thing as any of those, except far reaching outliers and abberations...

[carpedm9587]

Last night, in a moment of pique, I was rude to Rogue, Sparko, Pix, and (most notably) to CP. I resorted to name calling and denigration. I have no excuse, and I'd like to apologize to all of them - especially to CP. Of everyone, he least deserved my tantrum.

I knew, as I typed, that I was letting my emotions govern my words. I should have closed the laptop and gone to bed. I am sorry that I didn't - and I am sorry if I hurt anyone.

[carpedm9587]

Considering there isn't any such thing as any of those, except far reaching outliers and abberations...

On that we disagree. I find that they all exist, but I recognize that there is widespread denial about it from the right. Of course, those who deny it will more than likely accuse me of projecting my problems on others.

That merry-go-round has no terminus...so I'm not sure there is much point in discussing it. And I have no desire for another "pig pile." I'm not up to it.