So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Mountain Man]

There is a great deal of data to support this demonstrable fact. E.g.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...past-two-years

Given how liberals push nonsense like "white privilege" and "micro-aggression" where certain segments of society are deemed guilty without having so much as lifted a finger, I'll take that survey with a healthy serving of salt. Fair enough? I could see how an insecure woman who just "knows" guys are looking at her, and sees a sinister motive behind an innocent compliment, might answer yes to a survey asking if she has been subjected to sexual harassment.

[Cow Poke]

There is a great deal of data to support this demonstrable fact. E.g.

I always appreciate how you precede your spewing forth of nonsense with warnings such as this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...past-two-years

So, people at the UN (an incredibly corrupt organization) tell dirty jokes and stories...

According to the report, 21.7% of respondents said they were subjected to sexual stories or offensive jokes, 14.2% received offensive remarks about their appearance, body or sexual activities and 13% were targeted by unwelcome attempts to draw them into a discussion on sexual matters.

That's the best you could do?

A quick Google search will give you lots more.

So why didn't you post any?

It is perfectly reasonable to question, as per this article....

How bout doing some actual homework this time and post something credible, rather than just posting crap with a whole bunch of Tassyspeak declaring it "demonstrable fact".

[Joel]

'Toxic masculinity' are behaviors that are harmful yet are promoted by or excused by our culture's idea of how "real men" behave.

So if you think of the • Edited by a Moderator • jerk at the high-school, what harms might he do as he aims to behave like an 'alpha male'? Pinch girls' butts, wolf-whistle at them, perhaps tell some they're too fat? Beat up the smallest or most effeminate boys for not being masculine-enough, while calling them 'gay'? Get drunk and beat up his girlfriend of the day?...

It seems to me that our culture does not promote or excuse any of this. And I've never even encountered anyone express the opinion that that is how "real men" behave.

i.e. All the jerk behavior that, when someone complains about it, so often gets swept under the rug of "well, boys will be boys".

I've never seen anyone do that. I've only heard that phrase as used by people who are complaining about it. I tried searching google for the phrase to see some of the supposedly common instances of its use. But the results were all of people complaining about the supposedly common usage of the phrase.

And which the boys and men who are acting like that, rather than feeling bad about who they're harming, instead think of themselves as acting 'manly' and living up to social goals and stereotypes about how they should act.

Who thinks that? It seems more likely that bad-boy types are acting in conscious rebellion against how society says they should act.

I've also seen it suggested that opposition to "toxic masculinity" is challenging traditional ideas of masculinity. But the Western tradition of how men should act is chivalry and acting Christian-ly. If anyone is saying it's good to commit battery against women, be a bully, etc., it's certainly not the advocates of traditional Western morality.

[Tassman]

I always appreciate how you precede your spewing forth of nonsense with warnings such as this.



So, people at the UN (an incredibly corrupt organization) tell dirty jokes and stories...

According to the report, 21.7% of respondents said they were subjected to sexual stories or offensive jokes, 14.2% received offensive remarks about their appearance, body or sexual activities and 13% were targeted by unwelcome attempts to draw them into a discussion on sexual matters.

That's the best you could do?



So why didn't you post any?



How bout doing some actual homework this time and post something credible, rather than just posting crap with a whole bunch of Tassyspeak declaring it "demonstrable fact".

How about posting something of substance.

[Tassman]

Given how liberals push nonsense like "white privilege" and "micro-aggression" where certain segments of society are deemed guilty without having so much as lifted a finger, I'll take that survey with a healthy serving of salt. Fair enough? I could see how an insecure woman who just "knows" guys are looking at her, and sees a sinister motive behind an innocent compliment, might answer yes to a survey asking if she has been subjected to sexual harassment.

Yep, "blame the victim", that was Harvey Weinstein's approach. He's a real man.

[Mountain Man]

Yep, "blame the victim", that was Harvey Weinstein's approach. He's a real man.

Because all women are victims, am I right?

[Cow Poke]

How about posting something of substance.

How bout dialing down the Drama Queenery and/or mind your own business. You referenced the UN -- if ever there was a screwed up corrupt organization, that's one! How bout offering a legitimate example instead of a cesspool?

[Joel]

Looking around a bit, it seems that the term "toxic masculinity" originated not from feminists but from a men's movement in the 1990's. The point was not that these behaviors make a "real man" or that they are part of a traditional view of masculinity, but the opposite: that feminism challenged and modified traditional views of gender, and that the "toxic" view and behaviors grew in frequency as a consequence of that. One proposed cause was the modern breakdown of traditional families, and the "toxic" behaviors of boys and men tend to occur among those who were raised in a broken family, particularly without father figures. So although the left supposes it is a remnant of traditional Western culture, instead the original idea was that this "toxicity" grew as a consequence of the modern culture promoted by the left.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FeMRADebate...activists_not/

I have heard the above claim before, that "toxic" behaviors are not typically passed in our culture from fathers to sons, but that "toxic" boys and men are most likely to have been raised without father figures.

[carpedm9587]

I dont see how that would be. Isnt that just being courteous?

If you're opening the door to help another person or be kind - yep.
If you're opening the door because you are the strong man and they're just the fragile women - that's an example of "toxic masculinity."

Other examples of "toxic masculinity" include:

- Trump's statements on the access Hollywood tapes
- Franken's actions on the plane
- Pretty much everything Weinstein did
- Two words: Anthony Weiner
- The oft found male attitude that women are just conquests to get in bed (like the college roommate that puts a notch in his walking stick for every new woman he sleeps with, and two notches if she's a virgin).

Essentially - anything that objectifies women and glorifies men for doing so.

[Cow Poke]

Looking around a bit, it seems that the term "toxic masculinity" originated not from feminists but from a men's movement in the 1990's. The point was not that these behaviors make a "real man" or that they are part of a traditional view of masculinity, but the opposite: that feminism challenged and modified traditional views of gender, and that the "toxic" view and behaviors grew in frequency as a consequence of that. One proposed cause was the modern breakdown of traditional families, and the "toxic" behaviors of boys and men tend to occur among those who were raised in a broken family, particularly without father figures. So although the left supposes it is a remnant of traditional Western culture, instead the original idea was that this "toxicity" grew as a consequence of the modern culture promoted by the left.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FeMRADebate...activists_not/

I have heard the above claim before, that "toxic" behaviors are not typically passed in our culture from fathers to sons, but that "toxic" boys and men are most likely to have been raised without father figures.

Are you (they) referring to the Promise Keepers era, perhaps?

[Starlight]

How bout dialing down the Drama Queenery and/or mind your own business. You referenced the UN -- if ever there was a screwed up corrupt organization, that's one! How bout offering a legitimate example instead of a cesspool?

You max out your own Drama Queenery in a post criticizing Drama Queenery? Sad!

The UN has some flaws but it's not half as bad as you conservatives here like to pretend.

[Sparko]

If you're opening the door to help another person or be kind - yep.
If you're opening the door because you are the strong man and they're just the fragile women - that's an example of "toxic masculinity."

Other examples of "toxic masculinity" include:

- Trump's statements on the access Hollywood tapes
- Franken's actions on the plane
- Pretty much everything Weinstein did
- Two words: Anthony Weiner
- The oft found male attitude that women are just conquests to get in bed (like the college roommate that puts a notch in his walking stick for every new woman he sleeps with, and two notches if she's a virgin).

Essentially - anything that objectifies women and glorifies men for doing so.

How is what those on your list did "glorifying men?"

Those actions are not representative of how men are supposed to behave or are taught to behave. Tying those behavior to masculinity so you can call it "toxic" is just an attempt to poison the well by tainting masculinity itself. Men mistreating women is just boorish and bad behavior. Men raping or sexually assaulting women is just being criminal. It isn't masculinity, any more than a woman manipulating a man to be her sugar daddy is "femininity" - it is just bad behavior.

[Mountain Man]

If you're opening the door because you are the strong man and they're just the fragile women - that's an example of "toxic masculinity."

I see. So even if you do the right thing, liberals still have an avenue to call you guilty because they can simply accuse you of doing it for the wrong reasons. Heads, they win; tails, you lose.

This kind of thinking is precisely why I don't take that United Nations survey that Tass referenced seriously.

[Cow Poke]

You max out your own Drama Queenery in a post criticizing Drama Queenery? Sad!

Kinda like fight fire with fire, eh?

[carpedm9587]

How is what those on your list did "glorifying men?"

In the minds of the perpetrator, Sparko. One needs only to watch Trump as he made his boasts to see that he saw himself as "superior" and bragging about his capabilities with women. Weinstein leveraged power. Essentially - male puffery at the expense of women is a significant part of "toxic masculinity."

Those actions are not representative of how men are supposed to behave or are taught to behave.

And yet they are found widely among men.

Tying those behavior to masculinity so you can call it "toxic" is just an attempt to poison the well by tainting masculinity itself. Men mistreating women is just boorish and bad behavior. Men raping or sexually assaulting women is just being criminal. It isn't masculinity, any more than a woman manipulating a man to be her sugar daddy is "femininity" - it is just bad behavior.

The behavior is simply men who do not know what it truly means to be "masculine." They have perverted it. But I don't have an issue with the term. "Toxic water" is simply water that has been poisoned. It does not imply that all water is bad. "Toxic gas" is simply any form of gas that is harmful. It doesn't mean all gas is bad. Likewise, "toxic masculinity" is masculinity that has been perverted. It does not mean all masculine things are toxic.