So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[seer]

I have no idea how any of this relates to "toxic masculinity," which was the subject of this thread.

If you watched it did you consider the actions and language toxic?

[Cow Poke]

From the cite I posted earlier....



So, we used to teach boys to be "gentlemen", and that would, of course, preclude "violence, (improper) sex, status and aggression", but GOD FORBID we do that anymore, because it might keep Johnny from thinking he needs to cut off his penis and wear dresses and makeup.

Isn't that what this is all about? To destroy traditional gender roles? To cause gender to be more "fluid"?


ETA: The "Good Men Project"

[carpedm9587]

Sheeeeesh!!!!!!

OK.... let's cut to the quick.

You're right, Carpe. You're ALWAYS right. Why do we even bother trying to say otherwise?

Your frustration is understood, CP. What you are expressing is essentially my impression as well. It doesn't matter how irrational the position is, and what arguments are put forward to show the weakness of the position - most of the folks here need to be always right - so they will reject/resist anything that doesn't fit into their world.

No one has responded to the points that have been made several times. All we get is this knee-jerk "toxic masculinity doesn't exist - bad words - liberal plot - broad brush." The fact that all of this is being inconsistently applied to other words/concepts doesn't register - The fact that it is being inconsistently applied male vs. female doesn't register.

We see the same kind of dialogue around "white privilege," "inherent bias," and "systemic racism." Somehow, all of these are trigger words because apparently the right has been "victimized" (i.e., painted by too broad a brush) by them? So best to deny they even exist as a reality, and insist, despite any evidence to the contrary, that they are real phenomena in our society today. A simple dialogue/discussion about them is not even possible. I have every expectation that my use of those words in this post will trigger the start of another pig pile - and I will be responsible because I had the audacity to use the words.

Well - I know these are real phenomena. I know they are large-scale problems. Burying our heads in the sand, sticking our fingers in our ears, and screaming "liberal plot" doesn't make them go away. And, as they say, if you're not part of the solution, there's a good chance that you are part of the problem.

[Cow Poke]

Your frustration is understood, CP. What you are expressing is essentially my impression as well. It doesn't matter how irrational the position is, and what arguments are put forward to show the weakness of the position - most of the folks here need to be always right - so they will reject/resist anything that doesn't fit into their world.

No one has responded to the points that have been made several times. All we get is this knee-jerk "toxic masculinity doesn't exist - bad words - liberal plot - broad brush." The fact that all of this is being inconsistently applied to other words/concepts doesn't register - The fact that it is being inconsistently applied male vs. female doesn't register.

We see the same kind of dialogue around "white privilege," "inherent bias," and "systemic racism." Somehow, all of these are trigger words because apparently the right has been "victimized" (i.e., painted by too broad a brush) by them? So best to deny they even exist as a reality, and insist, despite any evidence to the contrary, that they are real phenomena in our society today.

Well - I know they are real phenomena. I know they are large-scale problems. Burying our heads in the sand, sticking our fingers in our ears, and screaming "liberal plot" doesn't make them go away. And, as they say, if you're not part of the solution, there's a good chance that you are part of the problem.

You're right.

[carpedm9587]

From TeachingTolerance.org

That is a well-written description - and aligns well with what I have been saying. Thanks for sharing it.

[Cow Poke]

That is a well-written description - and aligns well with what I have been saying. Thanks for sharing it.

And it totally escapes you that this phrase "can easily be misunderstood to be wildly insulting, even bigoted"? Do you think that was accidental? Do you think it's wise?

[carpedm9587]

If you watched it did you consider the actions and language toxic?

I can't say I went through the entire video, but I've seen the movie and similar other such videos. In a military training context, pushing recruits hard - looking for triggers than could be used in battle to subvert "cool thinking" are all appropriate. And anyone can remove themselves by simply washing out. This has nothing to do, IMO, with "toxic masculinity."

However, if you took the exact same behavior and put it in a male boarding school with middle-schoolers, different story.

[carpedm9587]

From the cite I posted earlier....



So, we used to teach boys to be "gentlemen", and that would, of course, preclude "violence, (improper) sex, status and aggression", but GOD FORBID we do that anymore, because it might keep Johnny from thinking he needs to cut off his penis and wear dresses and makeup.

Isn't that what this is all about?

No.

To destroy traditional gender roles?

No.

To cause gender to be more "fluid"?

No. And I'll add that the fact that you think these things means you've pretty much misunderstood everything I've said - and have locked what I am actually saying into a stereotype of the "radical left." I'm not surprised - that's pretty much what always happens here.

ETA: The "Good Men Project"

So this site is a mixture of things I say to and things I say to.

[carpedm9587]

You're right.

I know

[Cow Poke]

No. And I'll add that the fact that you think these things means you've pretty much misunderstood everything I've said - a...

I love you, man, but I'm not looking at you as the subject matter expert on 'toxic masculinity' - you are expressing your opinions, as you are entitled to do.

[carpedm9587]

And it totally escapes you that this phrase "can easily be misunderstood to be wildly insulting, even bigoted"?

No - it doesn't

Do you think that was accidental?

I think any phrase can be turned into something ugly.

Do you think it's wise?

Absolutely not. At no point have I ever advocated using a term in a bigoted fashion. I also don't think we discard terms because some people use them badly. We wouldn't have much language left if that approach was used. Indeed, this is one of the points I have made repeatedly: this standard is not uniformly applied. There are MANY words that are misused by sometimes large segments of the population - but no one is advocating eliminating all of them from the language. So this "rule" is selectively applied. One has to wonder why...

[carpedm9587]

I love you, man, but I'm not looking at you as the subject matter expert on 'toxic masculinity' - you are expressing your opinions, as you are entitled to do.

I don't believe I have ever claimed to be a SME on "toxic masculinity." What I am expressing are indeed my opinions. They are informed opinions - and so far I've seen nothing that makes me think they are off-track. As I said, people seem to be so busy reacting, they haven't even responded to the points made.

[Mountain Man]

In this case - it is. It's kinda hard for a women to engage in "toxic masculinity."

But women, too, can engage in the kinds of behaviors that are pigeon-holed as "toxic masculinity".

In other words, there is nothing inherently "masculine" about being a sexist, or a jerk, so describing those acts as "toxic masculinity" is a misnomer.

You are assuming/guessing with no basis. While it has never happened, I would like to think that I would affirm it if my boys were actually engaging in it, and deny it if they weren't.

In that case, every time we hear a story about some gang banger getting killed in the hood, or a black kid arrested on drug charges, or absentee fathers in urban homes, we'll just start calling that "toxic African-Americanism". Will that be OK with you?

[Cow Poke]

From "Know Your Meme"...

[Cow Poke]

I don't believe I have ever claimed to be a SME on "toxic masculinity." What I am expressing are indeed my opinions. They are informed opinions - and so far I've seen nothing that makes me think they are off-track. As I said, people seem to be so busy reacting, they haven't even responded to the points made.

I THINK you're seeing everything through the prism of "my opinions are informed opinions" and everybody else is ignorant.


(oooops - I almost included a 'shrug' emoji)