Assessment of Mr. Trump

[Starlight]

Trump is a proven liar. This is not in doubt.

I've heard he sometimes says some true things.

Off the top of my head I can't actually think of one...
<one minute later>
Oh, I know "some [Mexicans crossing the border], I assume, are good people".

[Tassman]

I've heard he sometimes says some true things.

Off the top of my head I can't actually think of one...
<one minute later>
Oh, I know "some [Mexicans crossing the border], I assume, are good people".

The exception that proves the rule.

[Starlight]

One of my favorite Trump comments was when he explained that health insurance costs $1/month but you save it up and by the time you are 70 you "get a nice plan". And that's after he'd been president for more than half a year, and health coverage had been almost the single main policy issue in front of congress over that period. That quality of knowledge might be fine for an average 80 year old in a care home who was suffering dementia, but this is the guy that the Republican voters thought would make a good President.

[rogue06]

One of my favorite Trump comments was when he explained that health insurance costs $1/month but you save it up and by the time you are 70 you "get a nice plan". And that's after he'd been president for more than half a year, and health coverage had been almost the single main policy issue in front of congress over that period. That quality of knowledge might be fine for an average 80 year old in a care home who was suffering dementia, but this is the guy that the Republican voters thought would make a good President.

And don't forget this whopper of his: If you like your doctor you can keep him.

[Tassman]

One of my favorite Trump comments was when he explained that health insurance costs $1/month but you save it up and by the time you are 70 you "get a nice plan". And that's after he'd been president for more than half a year, and health coverage had been almost the single main policy issue in front of congress over that period.

"Whatever it takes" is what he's all about. Truth is an unknown concept.

That quality of knowledge might be fine for an average 80 year old in a care home who was suffering dementia, but this is the guy that the Republican voters thought would make a good President.

He's pro-life and anti-gay...same as Roy Moore. What more does an Evangelical voter want? Oh, and recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is an added bonus.

[Starlight]

And don't forget this whopper of his: If you like your doctor you can keep him.

The vast vast majority of people will have kept their doctor.

The false part of the statement was "if you like your plan, you can keep it". The reality was that (a) Obamacare required that plans meet certain standards in order that people with awful plans that ripped them off (and who for some bizarre reason, liked them) couldn't keep them, and (b) Insurance companies were private entities who constantly changed up their plans anyway and were obviously going to make changes in response to Obamacare passing, so Obama implying the plans wouldn't change was silly to say as it was promising something he had no control over and would likely be untrue.

But at least Obama knew healthcare wasn't the same as life insurance, and that it didn't cost $1 a month.

[Starlight]

He's pro-life and anti-gay...same as Roy Moore. What more does an Evangelical voter want? Oh, and recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is an added bonus.

It was amusing to hear the evangelicals in my family in New Zealand discussing on Christmas day how crazy and stupid Trump is. It's worth keeping in mind that US evangelicals are... unusual... in a large variety of ways, and that the biggest US evangelical denomination (Southern Baptists) quit the World Evangelical Alliance because it was too radical to tolerate the rest of the world's evangelicals. It's also worth keeping in mind that among US evangelicals it is only the White Evangelicals that supported Trump, the Black Evangelicals aren't as... unusual.

I also noticed today when I was digging through the Pew data on political polarization for Carpe, that overall support for same sex marriage went up 7 points over the last year in the US, and that republican voters are now up to 50-50 on support for same sex marriage. Among republican voters, only baby boomers and older are more against it than for it. And though White Evangelicals remain the most against it (35% support, 59% opposed), the group of White Evangelicals who are younger than baby boomers are 50-50 on the issue.

[Cow Poke]

Just the same as with Obama right...?

I don't believe you'll ever find me calling Obama anything like "Fat Barak" or refusing to acknowledge him as President.

[Cow Poke]

The vast vast majority of people will have kept their doctor.

I'd like to see some backup for that, please.

[carpedm9587]

And don't forget this whopper of his: If you like your doctor you can keep him.

Umm... I keep hearing this one. There are a few differences.

• First, Obama made this comment about both the doctor and the plan before the bill was finalized, so he wasn't lying - he was predicting. He didn't control the final bill. (I am not going to change this, but I do need to amend it. After I wrote this, I found several sources that showed Obama continued to say this well after the bill was passed. His error/lie was to make the statement so definitive.)
• Second, the vast majority of people were avble to keep both their doctors and their plan
• Third, the reason others couldn't was because the companies discontinued the plans due to elements that did not meet the needs of the act. The vast majority of these were replaced with superior plans
• Fourth, Obama owned this mistatement and acknowledged he had spoken far too broadly and to definitively too early in the process - and he apologized for it.

I do not like many of Obama's policies - but this one is just an ingrained, knee-jerk reaction from the right without a significant amount of merit. At the end of the day, a fraction of the overall people displaced were displaced in a negative fashion. But the right seized on this, and harps on it to this day, as a form of "what-about-ism." Every politician makes mistatements. Every politician spins and exagerates. Frankly, I think every politician lies in some circumstances. After all, they're human and humans eventually lie. Pointing out that someone else made a mis-statement or lied does not excuse what Trump does day in and day out, at a rate that puts pretty much everyone I know or have ever heard of to shame. The man is a cumpulsive, admitted, chronic liar. If reality isn't what he wants it to be, he makes it up, and then insists he's right even if he is presented with video/photographic/audio evidence of his lie.

[carpedm9587]

I'd like to see some backup for that, please.

This study (https://www.factcheck.org/2014/04/mi...ost-insurance/) says between 2.6 and 4.7 milliion people had their plans cancelled. Given the number of people insured in the U.S., those numbers are in the 1-3% range, which left 97-99% with plans intact. But those numbers are misleading. Most of those people didn't lose insurance, they simply had to shift to a different plan. This happened because some plans did not meet ACA requirements and were cancelled to be replaced with plans that did. In a few cases, insurers pulled out of markets, so their plans went with them. I would like to see numbers around what percentage of these plans got better or less expensive, but I am not finding those. If we assume a normal bell distribution (yes, I know that's an assumption), it means 1.3-2.35M plans got worse, with a fraction of those "significantly worse." That would put the numbers well below 1%.

I am also still trying to find stats on doctors, but I cannot so far.

Meanwhile, I made a mis-statement in my previous post. I thought Obama had only made that "you can keep your plan" claim before the bill was passed. He apparently continued to say it after it was passed and as it was being implemented, so this appears to fall in the camp of an Obama lie (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-plan-keep-it/), however, it was a lie because he made the claim so definitively. If he had simply said, "the vast majority of you will be able to keep..." he would have been spot on. By making his claim absolute, he set himself up. And by continuing to say it after it was shown not to be true, he slipped into lie territory. A stupid political move, IMO.

[Cow Poke]

Umm... I keep hearing this one. There are a few differences.

• First, Obama made this comment about both the doctor and the plan before the bill was finalized, so he wasn't lying - he was predicting. He didn't control the final bill.
• Second, the vast majority of people were avble to keep both their doctors and their plan
• Third, the reason others couldn't was because the companies discontinued the plans due to elements that did not meet the needs of the act. The vast majority of these were replaced with superior plans
• Fourth, Obama owned this mistatement and acknowledged he had spoken far too broadly and to definitively too early in the process - and he apologized for it.

I do not like many of Obama's policies - but this one is just an ingrained, knee-jerk reaction from the right without a significant amount of merit. At the end of the day, a fraction of the overall people displaced were displaced in a negative fashion. But the right seized on this, and harps on it to this day, as a form of "what-about-ism." Every politician makes mistatements. Every politician spins and exagerates. Frankly, I think every politician lies in some circumstances. After all, they're human and humans eventually lie. Pointing out that someone else made a mis-statement or lied does not excuse what Trump does day in and day out, at a rate that puts pretty much everyone I know or have ever heard of to shame. The man is a cumpulsive, admitted, chronic liar. If reality isn't what he wants it to be, he makes it up, and then insists he's right even if he is presented with video/photographic/audio evidence of his lie.

It wasn't just "keep your doctor" and "keep your plan" - it was a frequent campaign declaration emphasized with a "period!" So, what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) was that Obama promised something that he knew he couldn't deliver - OR - that he promised something he he could not deliver and didn't even realize it. ? The problem was he was so emphatic about it

[Cow Poke]

This study (https://www.factcheck.org/2014/04/mi...ost-insurance/) says between 2.6 and 4.7 milliion people had their plans cancelled. Given the number of people insured in the U.S., those numbers are in the 1-3% range, which left 97-99% with plans intact. But those numbers are misleading. Most of those people didn't lose insurance, they simply had to shift to a different plan. This happened because some plans did not meet ACA requirements and were cancelled to be replaced with plans that did. In a few cases, insurers pulled out of markets, so their plans went with them. I would like to see numbers around what percentage of these plans got better or less expensive, but I am not finding those. If we assume a normal bell distribution (yes, I know that's an assumption), it means 1.3-2.35M plans got worse, with a fraction of those "significantly worse." That would put the numbers well below 1%.

I am also still trying to find stats on doctors, but I cannot so far.

Meanwhile, I made a mis-statement in my previous post. I thought Obama had only made that "you can keep your plan" claim before the bill was passed. He apparently continued to say it after it was passed and as it was being implemented, so this appears to fall in the camp of an Obama lie (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-plan-keep-it/), however, it was a lie because he made the claim so definitively. If he had simply said, "the vast majority of you will be able to keep..." he would have been spot on. By making his claim absolute, he set himself up. And by continuing to say it after it was shown not to be true, he slipped into lie territory. A stupid political move, IMO.

OK, I posted before you edited, so I think, once again, we're more in agreement than not. Hey, it's still Christmas, things can change.

[carpedm9587]

OK, I posted before you edited, so I think, once again, we're more in agreement than not. Hey, it's still Christmas, things can change.

Drat! That wascally wabbit foiled me again. I'll get you, you wascally wabbit! :gun: (I lost my link to the emoji page )

[Mountain Man]

First, Obama made this comment about both the doctor and the plan before the bill was finalized, so he wasn't lying - he was predicting.

Oh, that's handy. So anytime a favored politician is accused of lying about his campaign promises, we can just say, "He didn't lie, he simply made an incorrect prediction."