27 Christians Murdered In Texas Church...

[Jedidiah]

If the system is broken then it's broken because of everyone in the system, not just those who want to see it fixed.

The system is not broken. Evil has always found a way to do it's damage. It is not the system but the people who abuse it. You can not fix things by passing laws.

[Sparko]

Who exactly do you feel I'm virtue signalling to here? This is a forum made up mostly of conservatives, I'm obviously not signalling to them, and the liberals here don't like me all that much, so why would I signal to them? What I feel like I'm doing is attempting to offer some sort of answer to the question "what can be done?" I'm a fix-it type of guy. This idea of "no one is enforcing the laws we have, so let's all just throw our arms up in the air and say nothing can be done" is not something I buy. I think there are plausible solutions, and I don't understand the resistance to them.

Because when I asked how your suggestions would actually help you just said you were not God and had no idea how they would help stop these sorts of incidents.

Again, not talking about concealed or open carry. The proposal I outlined was referring to a standard license and registration for all guns, period. I'm not sure why this was so hard to figure out.

Again, if the registration and licensing of handguns is not stopping handgun violence or keeping handguns out of the hands of criminals now in states that do require it, how will requiring registration and licensing for all guns keep them out of the hands of criminals?

[Roy]

OK, so what's the purpose of registering the gun? When a van is turned into a bomb to blow up a building, or used to mow down people on the sidewalk, they have been "registered", but that didn't stop anybody from using them for evil intent.

What would you expect the registration of firearms to achieve? (serious question)

Not a lot.

Why do you think registering all guns vs registering only guns carried in public matters?

[Cow Poke]

Not a lot.

Why do you think registering all guns vs registering only guns carried in public matters?

I wasn't advocating for the registering of ANY guns - just pointing out that it's not the same as vehicle registration.

Not all vehicles are required to be registered, and the ones that have been used in deadly attacks happen to be ones that WERE registered.

[Adrift]

Because when I asked how your suggestions would actually help you just said you were not God and had no idea how they would help stop these sorts of incidents.

Sparko, I explained how it would help generally already. I don't know how it would help in every specific instance. No one can know that no matter what law we're referring to. But anyhow, how does any of that make me a virtue signaler?

Again, if the registration and licensing of handguns is not stopping handgun violence or keeping handguns out of the hands of criminals now in states that do require it, how will requiring registration and licensing for all guns keep them out of the hands of criminals?

As far as I know, licensing and registration of handguns is not a thing in the United States (and I wasn't referring to concealed or open carry). That's precisely why the video I linked to suggested that they're things that happen in other nations, but not in the US. Did you watch the video?

[Cow Poke]

As far as I know, licensing and registration of handguns is not a thing in the United States (and I wasn't referring to concealed or open carry).

Actually, some states and municipalities do require the registration and licensing of handguns. New York, for example.

That's precisely why the video I linked to suggested that they're things that happen in other nations, but not in the US, and that perhaps help in lowering gun crime in those places they are practiced in. Did you watch the video?

I don't think it helps to compare 'what works in other countries' with the US, because we are so historically and culturally different. I think we need better justification that just "it works over there".

[Sparko]

Sparko, I explained how it would help generally already. I don't know how it would help in every specific instance. No one can know that no matter what law we're referring to. But anyhow, how does any of that make me a virtue signaler?

because that is what you are doing. saying "we have to do something" but when asked how that will help you can't answer. You are just trying to look like "good guy who wants to do something to help" even though all you are doing is making noise.

As far as I know, licensing and registration of handguns is not a thing in the United States (and I wasn't referring to concealed or open carry). That's precisely why the video I linked to suggested that they're things that happen in other nations, but not in the US. Did you watch the video?

How do you think police track a serial number back to the registered gun owner then?

[Adrift]

I wasn't advocating for the registering of ANY guns - just pointing out that it's not the same as vehicle registration.

Not all vehicles are required to be registered, and the ones that have been used in deadly attacks happen to be ones that WERE registered.

Couple things here. First of all, aren't most vehicles major purpose is to be used on public roadways? I mean, sure, I suppose you're right that a vehicle sitting on bricks in someone's front yard doesn't need to be registered, but then, that sort of vehicle is pretty useless, isn't it? I suppose there are some vehicles that are still useful that don't need to be registered, but the analogy wasn't intended to be absolute. Typically we license and register vehicles we plan on using, and maybe the same should be done with guns. Maybe an exception can be made for some sort of display gun that's inoperable/missing its receiver or something, that way everything will seem fair to pro gun people.

Second of all, licensing and registering a vehicle arguably goes a long way in preventing crime. It's a huge risk for a car without a license and registration to move around a city without law enforcement taking notice. And there have been plenty of cases where those vehicles that appeared to have been legally licensed and registered, but were not, were stopped for a number of routine traffic offences that prevented them from being used for the commission of crimes. Also, in cases where vehicles have been legally licensed and registered, and were used in criminal ways, the license and registration helped officers to find the offenders, or at least put them on the right track to find the offenders. So, as we can see from vehicles, licensing and registration is helpful, even if it doesn't completely prevent crime.

[Cow Poke]

How do you think police track a serial number back to the registered gun owner then?

And it's not at all unusual for the weapon to be traced back to a registered owner who reported it stolen or missing long before the incident, just as vehicles used in terrorist attacks are either stolen or rented. It doesn't prevent the attack, just gives some answers to what happened.

[Cow Poke]

Couple things here. First of all, aren't most vehicles major purpose is to be used on public roadways? I mean, sure, I suppose you're right that a vehicle sitting on bricks in someone's front yard doesn't need to be registered, but then, that sort of vehicle is pretty useless, isn't it? I suppose there are some vehicles that are still useful that don't need to be registered, but the analogy wasn't intended to be absolute. Typically we license and register vehicles we plan on using, and maybe the same should be done with guns. Maybe an exception can be made for some sort of display gun that's inoperable/missing its receiver or something, that way everything will seem fair to pro gun people.

Not talking about vehicles up on blocks. Talking about farm use vehicles and industrial vehicles that are not used on public roads. They are not required to be registered or licensed.

Second of all, licensing and registering a vehicle arguably goes a long way in preventing crime.

So, when somebody steals a legally licensed and registered vehicle....

It's a huge risk for a car without a license and registration to move around a city without law enforcement taking notice.

Which is why criminals are smart enough to steal a legally licensed and registered vehicle.

And there have been plenty of cases where those vehicles that appeared to have been legally licensed and registered, but were not, were stopped for a number of routine traffic offences that prevented them from being used for the commission of crimes. Also, in cases where vehicles have been legally licensed and registered, and were used in criminal ways, the license and registration helped officers to find the offenders, or at least put them on the right track to find the offenders. So, as we can see from vehicles, licensing and registration is helpful, even if it doesn't completely prevent crime.

Ummmmm..... again, criminals will use the legally licensed and registered vehicles, either stealing them or renting them, and that doesn't stop them at all from committing their crime. As I stated earlier, it only fills in some blanks of what happened after the fact.

[Adrift]

because that is what you are doing. saying "we have to do something" but when asked how that will help you can't answer.

Why do you keep saying this? I did tell you how it would help. Reread post #147 where I stated,

"As far as prevention goes, licensing and registration would serve to help track guns used in a crime to their origin, and even if that origin isn't to the criminal themselves, it would help the police know where to start in an investigation. Also, if guns are licensed and registered, the government could do yearly checks to ensure that the gun is still in the legal owner's possession, and the owner hadn't sold, lost, or had the gun stolen without informing anyone. If a license is revoked for any reason, then this should prevent the individual from ever legally owning a gun in the future. Registration could also help with random inspections to ensure the gun owner is properly storing the weapon in a safe so that there aren't any in-home accidents, and to lower the risk of theft."

Just because I don't know how it would help in every instance doesn't mean I don't have an answer for why it could hypothetically help in general.

You are just trying to look like "good guy who wants to do something to help" even though all you are doing is making noise.

To who? Who do you feel I'm trying to look like a good guy to? Name the person on this forum. I can tell you for a certainty that that isn't what is going on in my mind, and I should know, because it's my mind.

How do you think police track a serial number back to the registered gun owner then?

Well I imagine it would be through some sort of national database, but what does that have to do with unlicensed and unregistered guns?

[Littlejoe]

The main reason for registering a vehicle is for the State to charge you a road use tax.

[Adrift]

Actually, some states and municipalities do require the registration and licensing of handguns. New York, for example.

Good. That's a start then. The problem, of course, is that if you don't have to license and register a gun in the state over, then it probably won't be as effective a deterrent, since all one needs to do is drive over the state border line. It would need to be national law for it to be effective, it would seem to me.

I don't think it helps to compare 'what works in other countries' with the US, because we are so historically and culturally different. I think we need better justification that just "it works over there".

That's a good point. Our culture needs to change how it perceives and glorifies guns, and that'll probably take concerted effort through the education system and media (and maybe even in our places of worship). I don't think, though, that that should mean that we can't do X if we haven't done Y. We can do both.

[Sparko]

Why do you keep saying this? I did tell you how it would help. Reread post #147 where I stated,

"As far as prevention goes, licensing and registration would serve to help track guns used in a crime to their origin, and even if that origin isn't to the criminal themselves, it would help the police know where to start in an investigation. Also, if guns are licensed and registered, the government could do yearly checks to ensure that the gun is still in the legal owner's possession, and the owner hadn't sold, lost, or had the gun stolen without informing anyone. If a license is revoked for any reason, then this should prevent the individual from ever legally owning a gun in the future. Registration could also help with random inspections to ensure the gun owner is properly storing the weapon in a safe so that there aren't any in-home accidents, and to lower the risk of theft."

Just because I don't know how it would help in every instance doesn't mean I don't have an answer for why it could hypothetically help in general.



To who? Who do you feel I'm trying to look like a good guy to? Name the person on this forum. I can tell you for a certainty that that isn't what is going on in my mind, and I should know, because it's my mind.



Well I imagine it would be through some sort of national database, but what does that have to do with unlicensed and unregistered guns?

because in many states (I listed them earlier) you DO have to register your guns and they do track the serial numbers and owners. And guess what? There is still gun violence in those states as bad as in the states without such registrations. Because

1. Criminals usually buy stolen weapons or guns which have the serial numbers removed.
2. Bullets don't have serial numbers so registering a gun doesn't really do anything to stop crimes. Maybe they should register bullets instead.

[Adrift]

Not talking about vehicles up on blocks. Talking about farm use vehicles and industrial vehicles that are not used on public roads. They are not required to be registered or licensed.

As I stated, "I suppose there are some vehicles that are still useful that don't need to be registered, but the analogy wasn't intended to be absolute."

So, when somebody steals a legally licensed and registered vehicle....

Weren't you a cop? The vehicle is typically reported missing so that the criminal can be caught. Without a license and registration that would be a much more complicated thing to accomplish. This is a good thing, because caught car thieves can't use stolen vehicles to commit other crimes with said vehicle.

By the way, it feels really weird that I have to explain this stuff to you guys. This is all pretty basic stuff that we all know. It feels like you're all just giving me a hard time.

Which is why criminals are smart enough to steal a legally licensed and registered vehicle.

Well, not that they have much choice. It's not really about being smart, but that most road vehicles already have a license and registration on them, and anyways, common sense (not so much smarts) says it would look suspicious to drive something without a license plate. At any rate, it's also that thing which can identify the car thief, which is a good thing.

Ummmmm..... again, criminals will use the legally licensed and registered vehicles, either stealing them or renting them, and that doesn't stop them at all from committing their crime. As I stated earlier, it only fills in some blanks of what happened after the fact.

Well, yes, it can stop them from committing their crime. If a cop knows to look for a vehicle matching a certain description with XYZ on the license plate, the person will get pulled over and stopped from perpetrating other crimes, and they will also be caught for committing the initial crime of auto theft. Again, I don't understand what's so hard to figure out about this. Are you suggesting that we don't license and register vehicles?