Debunked: Socialism has never worked

[Sparko]

I...honestly....don't know how to reply to this post. It is so completely mind-boggling that I feel like I'm in a dream reading it.

You...You honestly thought that what we've been arguing about all these pages is that we think atheists believed in and worshipped something? Really?

What we've been debating is that you do not lack a belief. You confirmed that by stating, "we do have a view on the subject, our view is that god doesn't exist."

That's precisely what we've been trying to get you to see all this time. That's not a lack of belief, that IS a belief.

I swear, when I read a post by JimL I wonder if he is posting drunk or has Alzheimer's or something similar. His reading comprehension is horrible and he regularly shoots himself (or Tassman) in the foot with his comments, and then is completely clueless that he has done so and struts around like he won the debate.

If I were Tassman or Starlight, I would distance myself from him forthwith and pretend I didn't know the guy.

[Sparko]

Wow, and you call me stupid. No, our view is that we do not believe your claim that a god exist. Now why don't you stop being idiotic and drop this idiotic argument. If it makes you feel better, then feel free to think of my view as a belief, rather than what it is, a disbelief.

Jim, all I was doing was agreeing with Tassman:

And just asking him to do as he says and stop wasting our time and shut up already.

[JimL]

No, I haven't called you stupid. I said "you cannot be this thick", and I honestly (hopefully) don't think you are. I don't know why you're not getting this. The best I can come up with is that you're so set in your "us vs. them" thinking that you can't concede when others are right.

Oh the hypocrisy!

You do have a belief, a view, and in your own words that view is that "god doesn't exist". As long as atheists refuse to shoulder their share of the burden of proof for their view by claiming that they lack beliefs, I (or someone like me) will continue to call them out.

Oh please shut up Adrift, this is so stupid. Call it what you will, who the hell cares? Whats the point? No, there isn't a point. And no, we don't have to prove your claim wrong. If you want to make believers, rather than disbelievers out of us, then it is up to you to prove your claim, not up to us to disprove it.

[JimL]

Jim, all I was doing was agreeing with Tassman:



And just asking him to do as he says and stop wasting our time and shut up already.

Hey Sparko, Tass will do what he wants to do, if its a waste of your time, then don't participate. You just want to be nasty and tell him to shut up, thats all.

[Sparko]

Hey Sparko, Tass will do what he wants to do, if its a waste of your time, then don't participate. You just want to be nasty and tell him to shut up, thats all.

I just agreed with him is all. I can't help if you disagree with Tassman and agree with Adrift instead.

[Adrift]

You can call it a belief if you like (though I'd prefer you call it a belief about gods rather than a belief about God), but even if you do it's not a belief in something specific, it would at best be a belief about the beliefs of others. It would not be the same type of belief as your belief in God.

As I stated earlier in this thread, the question we're attempting to answer when we call ourselves either "theist" or "atheist" is, is there or is there not a god/s. The atheist, does, in fact have a view about this question. They believe that there is no god/s.

I lack a belief in your god, just like you lack a belief in Shub-Niggurath or Edward Hyde or Weedo the Invincible. Do you consider your view that Edward Hyde is fictional a belief similar to your belief in God? The problem is not whether you use the same word 'belief' in both cases, it's that you're equating two different types of view.

Well, first of all, almost all humans on this planet believe (and have believed) in some sort of creator/spiritual realm/divinity or supernatural. This view is arrived at because it seems incomprehensible to most people in this world to look around them and say, "This can't be all that there is. This couldn't all have just been some big dumb cosmic accident, there's something more going on here". Numbers, of course, don't prove anything true, but the atheist is bucking this trend. They are not simply walking around not asking the question about whether god/s exist, they too are beholding the world around them, and actively claiming "Yeah, I'm looking at all this, and I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing behind it all...it just is". In that way, your atheism has shaped your overall worldview in many ways that my theism has shaped my overall worldview. It answers the big questions, "who am I, is there a purpose for any of this, where did I come from, and where am I going?" So, no. I don't consider my view that Edward Hyde is a fictional character similar to my belief in God. How could I? Edward Hyde's existence or lack thereof says absolutely nothing about the questions that everyone has.

Usually those claiming atheism is a belief are comparing it with theism. The comparison fails. As soon as you admit that it is a different type of belief, then the larger argument is (temporarily) conceded. It's an argument over the meaning of words only.

It doesn't fail. Both the theist and the atheist are answering the question "does gods/ or does god/s not exist?" By claiming to lack belief, the atheist is attempting to say that they have no view, and instead, that atheism is simply some sort of psychological state. In this way they can nitpick the theist's view to their heart's content and never have to worry about defending their own view on the subject. It's dishonest. If you really truly lack a belief about the question "does god/s exist or does god/s not exist" then what you really are is an agnostic.

[Adrift]

Oh the hypocrisy!


Oh please shut up Adrift, this is so stupid. Call it what you will, who the hell cares? Whats the point? No, there isn't a point. And no, we don't have to prove your claim wrong. If you want to make believers, rather than disbelievers out of us, then it is up to you to prove your claim, not up to us to disprove it.

But, and I've repeated this to you a number of times already, I DO believe that I too need to support my claims. Everyone has the responsibility to support the claims they are making. That's sorta the whole point of this entire debate.

[One Bad Pig]

I don't really care much, or see much difference in the two.

I agree, there's little if any difference between atheism and agnosticism in practice.

[Mountain Man]

Looks like Jimmy just scored another own-goal.

[JimL]

As I stated earlier in this thread, the question we're attempting to answer when we call ourselves either "theist" or "atheist" is, is there or is there not a god/s. The atheist, does, in fact have a view about this question. They believe that there is no god/s.



Well, first of all, almost all humans on this planet believe (and have believed) in some sort of creator/spiritual realm/divinity or supernatural. This view is arrived at because it seems incomprehensible to most people in this world to look around them and say, "This can't be all that there is. This couldn't all have just been some big dumb cosmic accident, there's something more going on here". Numbers, of course, don't prove anything true, but the atheist is bucking this trend. They are not simply walking around not asking the question about whether god/s exist, they too are beholding the world around them, and actively claiming "Yeah, I'm looking at all this, and I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing behind it all...it just is". In that way, your atheism has shaped your overall worldview in many ways that my theism has shaped my overall worldview. It answers the big questions, "who am I, is there a purpose for any of this, where did I come from, and where am I going?" So, no. I don't consider my view that Edward Hyde is a fictional character similar to my belief in God. How could I? Edward Hyde's existence or lack thereof says absolutely nothing about the questions that everyone has.



It doesn't fail. Both the theist and the atheist are answering the question "does gods/ or does god/s not exist?" By claiming to lack belief, the atheist is attempting to say that they have no view, and instead, that atheism is simply some sort of psychological state. In this way they can nitpick the theist's view to their heart's content and never have to worry about defending their own view on the subject. It's dishonest. If you really truly lack a belief about the question "does god/s exist or does god/s not exist" then what you really are is an agnostic.

The atheist isn't filling in the gap in our knowledge about the nature of existence, we are simply saying that your belief is not supported by any actual evidence. Theism is a belief in a thing, a god creator, atheism is not a belief, it is simply a disbelief in your unsubstantiated claim of god.

[Sparko]

The atheist isn't filling in the gap in our knowledge about the nature of existence, we are simply saying that your belief is not supported by any actual evidence. Theism is a belief in a thing, a god creator, atheism is not a belief, it is simply a disbelief in your unsubstantiated claim of god.

And thus we come full circle:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post478616

[Adrift]

The atheist isn't filling in the gap in our knowledge about the nature of existence, we are simply saying that your belief is not supported by any actual evidence. Theism is a belief in a thing, a god creator, atheism is not a belief, it is simply a disbelief in your unsubstantiated claim of god.

You JUST got done telling me that you believe that God doesn't exist.

[JimL]

Right. and you don't have to defend or promote your disbelief, right?

So please, stop doing it. We are sick and tired of listening to you and tassman doing it.

ok? thanks.

You don't have to defend or promote your belief to me either, but you do anyway, right? Really not sure what all the whining is about. All I'm saying is that if you don't like it then don't participate.

Btw, I do have a belief concerning existence, though it isn't faith based such as is your belief, and if that is what we were discussing then your gripe would be legitimate, but we weren't, we were discussing your belief.

[Tassman]

And then astampists would NEED to defend their views against the stampists, right? They can't go around complaining about the stampists and say they don't have to defend their astampist views. That would be idiotic and counter-productive.

Non-stampists don't have views on non-stamp collecting. But they do need to defend their rights as citizens against fundy stampists who seek to impose THEIR views on everyone else and demand legislation to facilitate their beliefs and grant them benefits. All at the non-stampist's expense!

You JUST got done telling me that you believe that God doesn't exist.

No, he's simply not accepting your claim that God does exist.

[JimL]

You JUST got done telling me that you believe that God doesn't exist.

No, actually I just got through telling you that I don't believe that god exists. But obviously your just playing word games, you undertand the point we're making. If you want to discuss what it is that others believe, then you can do that, but we're not discussing what it is that others, or what it is that I believe, we're discussing what it is that you believe. Not believing in something, does not necessarily mean the holding of a specific contradictory belief.