Mr. Trump and the Military

[eider]

Yeah! And he's a real pain in the butt to those of us who really do!!!!

Oh no! Not you as well, thinking you're as smart as rogue!

[eider]

He had 4 years, and I worked under him and the previous 4 POTUS before him and the pudding brain in office now. We had far fewer problems in DoD under Trump than the others. We have evidence to draw on.

So you worked for the DoD during the evacuation of Afghanistan? Is that right? And what other problem free periods have you had in nearly 40 years?

When leaders are questioning you institution-old-boys, you'll be screaming out loud no matter who they are.

The difference between Mr Trumps' first presidency and the next might surprise you somewhat.......no?

[eider]

Sure. My prediction, if Trump gets re-elected, it will be a repeat of his first term. He will try to keep his promises to fix immigration, build a wall, etc, and the democrats will continue to block him while trying to impeach him again. I am just hoping that him being in office will cause inflation to drop again and the economy to pick up. Trump is good for business and industry and they seem to thrive better under him than Biden. And if he gets domestic oil production going again, the price of energy will drop again, and that means transportation costs go down, which leads to lower prices on goods.

So, good economy, maybe better immigration, but most of what he wants to do will be blocked by democrats in congress, and he will spend most of his time fighting impeachment.

So your prediction is that nothing much will get done during Mr Trump's presidency?

You should be his election guru!!!

How weak!

[eider]

Metaphorical?

Alright......you can find a real literal one!

Honestly, I think that some US citizens might consider seeking asylum in friendly countries.

[eider]

I would quote all of the data that shows these claims to be false, but I doubt it would make any difference. It hasn't in the past.

But let's just try ONE little data point and see how it works. The stock market had a HIGHER per-year return rate under Clinton, Obama, and Biden than it had under either Bush or Trump.
.............

My guess is you will just brush this easily derived fact aside, and cling to "22 months of zero growth" as your metric.

Of course he will!
He'll brush off Trump's involvement in Jan6th, or his criminal convictions, or....anything.
You're right, it won't make any difference.

[MaxVel]

Hi Carpe -

Some thoughts on your efforts to persuade people to change their political leanings..

(1) Looking from outside, it seems to me that many have little or no trust in the MSM to report Trump fairly, especially in regard to things he says. Over the last few years there have been a number of outright distortions if not actual lies about Trump's statements (ex: 'inject yourselves with bleach')

Implications: If you want to be credible to 'Trump supporters' then you need to show yourself as being as objective as you can, for example by pointing out any serious misrepresentations of Trump's actual statements.

If you are going to reject Trump for saying something, you need to show that statement accurately reported in context, so that people can see that it is actually what he said, and what he means.


(2) I think it would be helpful if you were to outline what you want the country to be like in the (near) future, and what policies and leadership qualities might take America there. You may find some common ground and at least you will be comparing Biden and Trump to some outside measurement, rather than just saying 'I don't like Trump'


(3) I feel that America political life has shifted to the left of what it once was, so calls for a return to the 'centre' come across to many as 'just accept how much things have changed, and don't try to return them to how you prefer'.

I have made no secret of the fact that I am not a Trump supporter. Indeed, it goes far beyond that; I consider Trump an existential risk to our country. As much as I want to think that our system of government can withstand the onslaught of another Trump presidency, I am not completely confident it can. Entering into a second term, Mr. Trump would not have many of the constraints that contained him in the second term. He would not have the need to keep enough of the populace happy to win a second term. He would also not make the mistake of having generals and other people of conscience on this staff; he has made it clear that he is going to surround himself (as he already has) with yes-men and sycophants, people who will say yes to pretty much anything he conceives.

But there is more. If you look closely at Project 2025, it calls for the wholesale replacement of the entire civil servant infrastructure, what so many on the right have come to call “the deep state.” These people are the worker bees who make government function. They have been hired and appointed under a wide variety of administrations over the years, so they span the political spectrum. I suspect there are people working there who have been there over the last 40 years, which means this population spans at least seven presidents. The plan is to replace them ALL with Trump supporters. The very thought of it is enough to make one shudder.

This seems to suggest that civil servants lean (or at least donate) pretty strongly left

https://www.fedsmith.com/2021/02/12/...ral-employees/

I was reflecting on this as I helped out at my cousin’s apartment, and came across the image you see here. It is an Air Force decal. The larger slogan, “These Colors Don’t Run” speaks to the dedication of the people who are members of the Air Force, and pretty much all of our military. But I want to call your attention to the three smaller slogans surrounding the Air Force seal. They are, “Excellence in All We Do,” “Integrity First,” and “Service Before Self.”

As I consider the person that Mr. Trump is, I find he fails on all counts. There is little sign that there is “Excellence in all he does.” The staff of Mr. Obama widely reported the attention he gave to morning briefings, and the level of preparation he expected of his advisers. He would read voluminous and detailed briefs, and have detailed questions to ask his staff and advisers. Mr. Trump is reported, by his own staff, to have insisted reports be reduced to a single page, and even then they could only maintain his attention if they put his name in the reports, such is his narcissism and vanity.

Mr. Trump does not show any sign of “Integrity First.” He has told us that he labels news items “Fake News” not because he believes they are false, but simply because he doesn’t like them. He and his children have both told us that deception is acceptable if it achieves a desired end. And deception is his stock in trade. He goes well beyond hyperbole, outright lying and repeating the lies even when there is physical and visual evidence that he is lying. This is straight out of Mein Kampf, where Hitler is clear that a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. That mantra was taken up by most of Hitler’s machine, resulting in the mass conversion of most of the German population to his agenda. We all know what horrors that produced before Hitler was finally defeated.

Do I even need to speak about “Service Before Self?” Mr. Trump did not “give up” anything to be president of the United States. His donation of his $400K was a publicity stunt, given that he cost the U.S. government over $144M to support his 298 golf trips over his one year presidency. His hotels raked in over $7M from foreign governments using the properties for government meetings and lodgings during visits to the U.S. (and other countries). Even our own government employees were pressured to use Trump properties, including the VP. The records that have surfaced do not show “at cost” pricing, and Trump properties are not the least expensive available. He never separated himself from his businesses. That Mr. Trump was closely involved with his businesses was definitely proven by the recent trial, where it was shown that he was still writing checks related to those companies while in the Oval Office. Mr. Trump wanted (and wants) the Oval Office because they give him what he wants most: money, power, and accolades. Now he also promises to use that office for the other thing he covets: revenge.

Mr. Trump does not respect the military that this decal represents. He has been reported, again by his own supporters, questioning the sacrifice of those who gave the last full measure, wanting to know “what was in it for them?” What president EVER has needed to ask that question? He has refused to be seen with handicapped military personnel because “it wouldn’t be a good look for him.” He has called POWs “losers,” saying he preferred those who were never caught. There is no respect there. There is only “what they can do for me.” Mr. Trump surrounded himself with “his generals” in his first term, a move most often seen by dictators and autocrats. As he began to see that these men and women were people of honor, and resistant to his worst impulses, almost all of those personnel resigned or were replaced. I doubt he will make that mistake again.

This is not a man who deserves to be the Commander in Chief of the greatest military in the world. This is not a man who can be trusted with that role. This is not a man who puts nation first. This is a man who puts one thing first: himself. And this is not a man who deserves your vote in November. Join me in showing Mr. Trump the door, and let him face the rest of the indictments he has been working so hard to dodge. You are not “his base,” you are “his shield.” Mr. Trump knows that you are probably the only thing standing between him and jail time. He will do and say anything to avoid that consequence of his actions. Do not throw your support to an obvious traitor to America. Heed the warning of the Founding Fathers, who feared that a man pretty much exactly like Trump would someday sway the populace and gain power.

A lot of this is unsourced rhetoric, and I can't give much weight to it for the reasons above

[Diogenes]

Hi Carpe -

Some thoughts on your efforts to persuade people to change their political leanings..

In Carp's defense, he's admitted he's not here to persuade people, but merely here to use Tweb as a proving ground to go to other places to argue.

[Bill the Cat]

So you worked for the DoD during the evacuation of Afghanistan? Is that right? And what other problem free periods have you had in nearly 40 years?

When leaders are questioning you institution-old-boys, you'll be screaming out loud no matter who they are.

The difference between Mr Trumps' first presidency and the next might surprise you somewhat.......no?

Never said any were problem free. I am saying Trump's 4 years were better overall

[eider]

Never said any were problem free. I am saying Trump's 4 years were better overall

Again....... This time will be different, because it is supposed to be Mr Trump's last term in office, so he won't be needing votes again. You won't be able to compare the two Presidencies.

[Bill the Cat]

Again....... This time will be different, because it is supposed to be Mr Trump's last term in office, so he won't be needing votes again. You won't be able to compare the two Presidencies.

Pure speculation.

[CivilDiscourse]

In Carp's defense, he's admitted he's not here to persuade people, but merely here to use Tweb as a proving ground to go to other places to argue.

Which is odd. As admitting you don't really care about your discussions here, just goes a long way towards making your conversations being taken with a grain of salt, which makes using this as a proving grounds kind of useless.

[Cow Poke]

Oh no! Not you as well, thinking you're as smart as rogue!

No, sir - I actually graduated 6th grade - Rogue is still trying.

[Cow Poke]

Go ask them then.

Don't have to. The answer is clear.

Did you maybe gulp too many energy drinks and are running around the board spewing forth nonsense?

[Sparko]

So...the U.S. Constitution is a document that provides a framework, but leaves the laws of the land to fill in the details. Before Trump, we never thought too much about the many ways in which the laws of the U.S. contain loophole for an unscrupulous actor to seize power. For example, although we have always had rogue electors, it was never seriously considered that someone would target "swing states" to create slates of fake electors and then secure the support of an entire party in Congress to refuse to ratify state electors in an attempt to get the election thrown to Congress, where they know they would win. But that is exactly what happened in 2020, and only failed because Mr. Pence did not play along (kudos to him) and there were still enough moderate Republicans to deny those seeking to make this strategy work the vote count they needed.

So how could a President seize power? One strategy would be to declare Martial Law, which a President has the power to do. If the declaration is challenged, Congress and the courts could overturn, but Republicans have already shown they will not stand against even Trump's worst impulses, and SCOTUS is now 66% conservative and showing themselves willing to get behind Mr. Trump on several fronts, including Mr. Trump's delaying tactics and seemingly even the claim that a president has absolute immunity against prosecution. A Trump lawyer went so far as to declare that a president could have a political opponent killed and could not be tried unless he had first been impeached and convicted, but Mr. Trump cannot be convicted in an impeachment trial because the vast majority of Republicans in the Senate will not vote against him.

So, is it possible? Absolutely. Is it likely? Do we REALLY want to trust that a man like Mr. Trump won't even try it? Personally, I have no confidence that he won't make the attempt. He has already tried once to retain power, has refused to concede, once publicly claimed he would be returned to the Oval Office BEFORE 2024, and is already lining up to claim that the election was rigged if he loses. On what basis would I even begin to trust him?

You are sounding paranoid. Again, to declare Martial Law, he would need to have the Military on his side. Not just the generals, the entire military. Taking over a country takes a lot of people. Not even republicans who normally support Trump would go along with a take over.

I am seeing that liberals have a lot of wrong ideas about conservatives, thinking they are all fascists who want to control everyone and remove all freedoms. That is actually the opposite of what conservatives want. We want LESS government, less control by the feds. We want to be able to live our lives free of government interference, and being taxed to death.

We see the liberals as wanting more government, taxes and more control. Forcing liberal values on everyone, making everyone dependent on the government Nanny State.

Perhaps we are wrong also?

[Sparko]

I would quote all of the data that shows these claims to be false, but I doubt it would make any difference. It hasn't in the past.

But let's just try ONE little data point and see how it works. The stock market had a HIGHER per-year return rate under Clinton, Obama, and Biden than it had under either Bush or Trump.

You seem to be fixated on a 22-month window during which the stock market did not gain ground under Biden, but there was an 18-month period during which the market made zero advancement under Trump as well, which you seem to ignore. Pretty much every economist and investment specialist will tell you: markets go up and they go down. What you are concerned about is total average return over a given period of time. If you are assessing presidents, the average annualized return over their term is derived by subtracting the trading value at the start of their term from the trading value at the end of their term, and dividing by the length of their term. Do that for the five last presidents, and the Dems outperform the Reps across the board.

My guess is you will just brush this easily derived fact aside, and cling to "22 months of zero growth" as your metric.

You are forgetting Covid hitting in 2020. If that had not happened the market would have continued to climb at an unprecedented rate. I gained more in the first few years under Trump than I did under 8 years of Obama.