What happens next?

[Cow Poke]

Believing in a non-physical resurrection was one of the very first heresies, spread by gnostics who believed that the flesh was evil and could not enter into God's presence.

I revised and extended my remarks.

[Sparko]

Gonna point out that the last sentence of your first post above is not actually credal, at least not part of the Apostolic/Nicaean Creed and it's not a requirement for "core" Christian belief.

-Sam

They mention the resurrection, Jesus raising from the dead. It is implied that it was physical. Not to mention that the gospels make sure to show that Jesus rose physically and preached against the gnosticism/asceticism that started to crop up. If you don't believe in a physical resurrection you can't be Christian. It is central to Christianity that Jesus came as a man, died, and rose physically as the first fruits and example to all of us what we will become when we are resurrected. If that didn't happen then Christianity is false and useless.

[Sparko]

I think where we run into trouble with these "core values" or "absolutes" lists is.....

• One set of requirements/beliefs necessary for Salvation.
• A more complete set of requirements/beliefs necessary for 'fellowship in my church'.
• A more extensive set of requirements/beliefs necessary to be a 'teacher or officer or leader in my church'.

I don't believe somebody needs to believe, for example, in the Virgin Birth to be saved.
Yeah, I get blowback on that, because it's seen as a crucial doctrine, but somebody being saved doesn't have to have an extensive knowledge of the Bible or orthodoxy in general.

That is true. You can be ignorant and still be saved. But the problem comes when you actively believe and even promote a false doctrine, such as Jehovah Witnesses who believe Jesus is not God, but the archangel Micheal, and that the Trinity is false. Then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus, a false God.

[Sam]

They mention the resurrection, Jesus raising from the dead. It is implied that it was physical. Not to mention that the gospels make sure to show that Jesus rose physically and preached against the gnosticism/asceticism that started to crop up. If you don't believe in a physical resurrection you can't be Christian. It is central to Christianity that Jesus came as a man, died, and rose physically as the first fruits and example to all of us what we will become when we are resurrected. If that didn't happen then Christianity is false and useless.

Physical resurrection (whatever "physical" means in this context) wasn't the point of contention but rather the described eternal destination of Heaven and Hell. Christ's judgement of the living and dead is included and one can infer from that annihilation or eternal damnation but neither of those are credal. Origen, for example, was universalist and is regarded not only as a Christian but an important Christian teacher.

-Sam

[Sparko]

Physical resurrection (whatever "physical" means in this context) wasn't the point of contention but rather the described eternal destination of Heaven and Hell. Christ's judgement of the living and dead is included and one can infer from that annihilation or eternal damnation but neither of those are credal. Origen, for example, was universalist and is regarded not only as a Christian but an important Christian teacher.

-Sam

Sure sam. You want to be nitpicky again. I get it.

Yes, it is not essential to believe that people will be alive in hell. Some people believe in annihilation of the damned. But believing in the physical resurrection of the body (Christ is the first) is essential to be a Christian. And the ultimate destination for those who are saved will be on the New Earth. Not living as spirits floating around in Heaven. If that were the case, why would we need a resurrection at all? We are already spirits when we die.

I will also point out that some people believe that instead of living as spirits in heaven until the resurrection, we just remain dead in the ground until the resurrection. That is also not an essential doctrine. But they still believe the resurrection is bodily/physical.

[Cow Poke]

That is true. You can be ignorant and still be saved. But the problem comes when you actively believe and even promote a false doctrine, such as Jehovah Witnesses who believe Jesus is not God, but the archangel Micheal, and that the Trinity is false. Then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus, a false God.

Yes, and in the case of the Virgin Mary - I meant to add - you don't have to believe that to be saved, but if you deny it, then you are not operating out of ignorance, but rebellion.

[Sparko]

Yes, and in the case of the Virgin Mary - I meant to add - you don't have to believe that to be saved, but if you deny it, then you are not operating out of ignorance, but rebellion.

I was a virgin when I was born!

[eider]

Which is pretty much all you do of late on Tweb.

Of late I sent a post on this thread, mentioning how well China is doing with its green energy research and development. All it received from your mates was nasty replies.

[eider]

Why?

You would learn quite a lot from Geza Vermes, whereas I couldn't learn anything about Jesus from Paul's stuff......he never actually quoted Jesus!

You were the one asking about if we can just sin all we want if we are "saved by faith alone" - it seems many others had that same question and Paul answers it in Romans. So if you are interested in an answer, read Romans. If you are just tossing out objections and don't really care, then go ahead and live in your ignorance. Your choice.

If Jesus did not say it then you are wandering off in to Pauline or Church dogma, imo.
So sending me off to read Paul can't help me much.

But I think we can both agree now that people cannot be saved ' by faith alone'. Once in the church you have to follow the laws and rules like sheep, with the ever lasting threat of eternal agony in hell for those who don't.

As for recent conversations with Hypatia_Alexandria which have mentioned that Christians can have their mammon in heaven, what an amazing idea, considering Jesus' comments about mammon. You can't have 'spirit' plus your earthly garbage, can you?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Because I thought maybe, just maybe, you would be interested in what Christians ACTUALLY believe, coming from an actual Christian. Silly me.

Paul writes in I Corinthians chapter fifteen that:

What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God......

For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality,

The question hinges on what Paul understood as flesh. From his writings he seems to have held ideas similar in some respects to the Stoics although whether he had direct knowledge of that philosophical school is unknown.

Nor in the ancient world were souls and spirits immaterial as they are now viewed by those who believe in such things. These entities were believed to be material but their material was far superior to that of the physical body.

Hence it may be considered that Paul's idea of Jesus being physically raised referred to a spiritual body that was deemed physical but physical in a completely different manner from how we would comprehend the term.. And that likewise believers would be resurrected in similar fashion.

[CivilDiscourse]

Paul writes in I Corinthians chapter fifteen that:

What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God......

For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality,

The question hinges on what Paul understood as flesh. From his writings he seems to have held ideas similar in some respects to the Stoics although whether he had direct knowledge of that philosophical school is unknown.

Nor in the ancient world were souls and spirits immaterial as they are now viewed by those who believe in such things. These entities were believed to be material but their material was far superior to that of the physical body.

Hence it may be considered that Paul's idea of Jesus being physically raised referred to a spiritual body that was deemed physical but physical in a completely different manner from how we would comprehend the term.. And that likewise believers would be resurrected in similar fashion.

Are you a qualified biblical scholar?

[seer]

Paul writes in I Corinthians chapter fifteen that:

What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God......

For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality,

The question hinges on what Paul understood as flesh. From his writings he seems to have held ideas similar in some respects to the Stoics although whether he had direct knowledge of that philosophical school is unknown.

Nor in the ancient world were souls and spirits immaterial as they are now viewed by those who believe in such things. These entities were believed to be material but their material was far superior to that of the physical body.

Hence it may be considered that Paul's idea of Jesus being physically raised referred to a spiritual body that was deemed physical but physical in a completely different manner from how we would comprehend the term.. And that likewise believers would be resurrected in similar fashion.

For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality,

Must put on - the physical body is not destroyed but added to:

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

How can the perishable clothe itself if it no longer exists?

[seer]

Sure sam. You want to be nitpicky again. I get it.

Yes, it is not essential to believe that people will be alive in hell. Some people believe in annihilation of the damned. But believing in the physical resurrection of the body (Christ is the first) is essential to be a Christian. And the ultimate destination for those who are saved will be on the New Earth. Not living as spirits floating around in Heaven. If that were the case, why would we need a resurrection at all? We are already spirits when we die.

I will also point out that some people believe that instead of living as spirits in heaven until the resurrection, we just remain dead in the ground until the resurrection. That is also not an essential doctrine. But they still believe the resurrection is bodily/physical.

Here is a good book by a friend of mine concerning hell:

https://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know.../dp/1401678300

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Are you a qualified biblical scholar?

Are you?

[CivilDiscourse]

Are you?

So, that would be a no from you then...