$15/hr Min Wage - We told you so

[Darth Executor]

I have seen them cheat people in my town for decades.

Firstly, they ran all the mom and pop pharmacies, shoe stores, sporting goods stores, clothing stores, electronics stores etc all of which were staffed with well paid professionals who had and maintained a sense of community.

The entire community is to blame, not just walmart. It's not like walmart puts guns to people's heads and forces them to shop there. The community sold each other out for a few bucks.

[Trout]

The entire community is to blame, not just walmart. It's not like walmart puts guns to people's heads and forces them to shop there. The community sold each other out for a few bucks.

Exactly. I just used them as an example.

[Terraceth]

Okay, going through the last couple years have changed my perspective.

I'm still very much for a minimum wage - it's a necessary bulwark against unscrupulous employers.

There's already a bulwark against unscruplous employers: Quit. Don't think you're getting paid fairly? Then go work for a non-unscruplous employer that pays better.

And let's explode the 'entry level' myth - you've all spoken to cashiers who have 20 years or more with Walmart on the floor. They don't become supervisors or managers - they do get better pay and benefits - and they never have a 'sit down' job. But they DO work for a living - and shouldn't be begrudged that living because they aren't something else. No, they shouldn't make what a CEO makes - their contribution doesn't justify that (arguably, neither does the CEO's) - but they should make enough to live on and to better themselves somewhat.

If they've worked for 20+ years at Walmart or another company and are still cashiers, then quite frankly, that's largely on them.

I haven't worked at Wal-Mart, I'll admit, but I did work as a cashier for several years at a grocery store. If someone was just a regular cashier after several years, that's because they never bothered to try to move up in the hierarchy. If you work hard and make it known that you want to move up, you will get opportunities to do so. Alternatively, do what I did, namely work there for several years and then quit when I finally managed to land a job that paid a lot better. If you're still working as a regular cashier after that long, it means you're either astoundingly unlucky, not very good at your job, or (most likely) you're not taking advantage of opportunities to advance yourself either in the company or out of it.

[Teallaura]

You're not reading what I'm saying. Good talk.

I'm reading - you're not making any sense.
First it was 'small employers can't afford $15/hr' which I didn't disagree with.
Then it was 'do you shop at wally world'
Then 'you don't have a right to speak because you shop at wally world'.

I read it - now what does it have to do with my points that it's NOT okay to denigrate workers in entry level jobs or that we need to look at something else which would be fairer to both employers and employees?

[Teallaura]

There's already a bulwark against unscruplous employers: Quit. Don't think you're getting paid fairly? Then go work for a non-unscruplous employer that pays better.

And when there aren't any?

If they've worked for 20+ years at Walmart or another company and are still cashiers, then quite frankly, that's largely on them.

So what? No one's arguing that they should take home a professional's salary - but it's also false that those are merely entry level jobs.

I haven't worked at Wal-Mart, I'll admit, but I did work as a cashier for several years at a grocery store. If someone was just a regular cashier after several years, that's because they never bothered to try to move up in the hierarchy. If you work hard and make it known that you want to move up, you will get opportunities to do so. Alternatively, do what I did, namely work there for several years and then quit when I finally managed to land a job that paid a lot better. If you're still working as a regular cashier after that long, it means you're either astoundingly unlucky, not very good at your job, or (most likely) you're not taking advantage of opportunities to advance yourself either in the company or out of it.

Or you happen to be good at that job and not material for the 'advanced' positions (Peter Principle).

And none of that justifies failing to pay commensurate with the work's value, does it?

[Terraceth]

And when there aren't any?

Then get yourself some experience and skills that will make you attractive to them.

So what? No one's arguing that they should take home a professional's salary - but it's also false that those are merely entry level jobs.

They are entry level jobs. Just because some people never rise above that level, again something that is up to them to do, doesn't mean they're not entry level.

And none of that justifies failing to pay commensurate with the work's value, does it?

In the words of Thomas Sowell: "If their work is really worth more than what their employer is paying them, all they have to do is quit and go work for some other employer, who will pay them what their work is really worth. If they can't find any other employer who will pay them more, then what makes them think their work is worth more?"

[Cow Poke]

Which the guy who works for Mickey D's doesn't get.

Nobody claimed that.

Which means the military are compensated better - living quarters and clothing are forms of compensation.

When was the last time a McDonald's employee was suddenly called to move to another country to put his/her life in danger to defend the McDonald's empire? And IF the McDonald's empire collapsed, we still have Burger King, Wendys, Arbys....

Still don't see why we can't treat both with respect until proven otherwise.

If you ever operated a small business, you'd know that one of the greatest challenges is getting employees to actually show up for work - and it's a BONUS if you can get them to provide good customer service. I'm not going to "respect" a person merely because he/she 'works at a fast food restaurant'.

I have an aunt who started out baptizing french fries at McDonalds's back in the 60's. Today she owns 7 McDonald's restaurants in Columbus, Ohio, and is quite wealthy. She decided that baptizing french fries was an "entry level" position, but provided her a path to management. She volunteered to be the "on call" person for several other McDonald's restaurants in the area when she wasn't working her first job.

She saw McDonald's not as a "part time job", but as a path to financial independence. She didn't sit around complaining about her wages, working conditions, hours --- she determined that she would eventually sign the fronts of paychecks instead of just the backs. Hard work and determination.

[Psychic Missile]

In the words of Thomas Sowell: "If their work is really worth more than what their employer is paying them, all they have to do is quit and go work for some other employer, who will pay them what their work is really worth. If they can't find any other employer who will pay them more, then what makes them think their work is worth more?"

It doesn't make sense to base the value of an employee off of their salary since their value in excess of what they're being paid is turned into company profit/employer salary.

[Cow Poke]

It doesn't make sense to base the value of an employee off of their salary since their value in excess of what they're being paid is turned into company profit/employer salary.

But that's part of the equation, PM -- what's the incentive for the employer to pay a salary if there is no reward for the employer?

[Psychic Missile]

But that's part of the equation, PM -- what's the incentive for the employer to pay a salary if there is no reward for the employer?

There isn't one. Employers want to pay their employees as small a salary as possible, which means that there is still room above starting salary and below unprofitability that a minimum wage should be. The well-being of an employer is in competition with the well-being of their employees. The problem is that only the employer has power, so there needs to be a balancing to prevent exploitation.

[Cow Poke]

There isn't one. Employers want to pay their employees as small a salary as possible,

So, what determines what's "possible"? If I can get somebody to pick up sticks and rake leaves in my front yard for $1.00 an hour, should I, out of the goodness of my heart, pay $20 an hour "just because"?

which means that there is still room above starting salary and below unprofitability that a minimum wage should be.

It's always easy for a man who doesn't own a company to come up with the rules for how somebody else who DOES own a company should run things.

The well-being of an employer is in competition with the well-being of their employees.

And a wise employer will try to find a balance.

The problem is that only the employer has power, so there needs to be a balancing to prevent exploitation.

Yeah, it's called the "golden rule" (of business) -- whoever has the gold makes the rules. There is nothing keeping that employee from starting their own business and paying whatever wages they feel are just.

[Sparko]

There isn't one. Employers want to pay their employees as small a salary as possible, which means that there is still room above starting salary and below unprofitability that a minimum wage should be. The well-being of an employer is in competition with the well-being of their employees. The problem is that only the employer has power, so there needs to be a balancing to prevent exploitation.

it is their business not yours. you have no right to tell them how to run it. if you want to start your own business and treat your employees what you think is fair, then do it, compete wit the unfair employers and put them out of business or make them compete by paying their employers more.

[Cow Poke]

it is their business not yours. you have no right to tell them how to run it. if you want to start your own business and treat your employees what you think is fair, then do it, compete wit the unfair employers and put them out of business or make them compete by paying their employers more.

McDonald's and Chick-Fil-A are good examples of how it's done - both poorly and correctly...

The CHRISTIAN based Chick-Fil-A has happier employees, better paid employees, college tuition programs, more loyal customers --- not because they got forced into a minimum pay raise situation, but because they realized they had to pay a little more for the quality young people they get at all their stores.

When you walk into a Chick-Fil-A, you are going to be greeted immediately with a smiling person who makes eye contact, and wants to make sure you have a good restaurant experience.

McDonald's? They just care about how many quadzillon burgers they can sell.

[Sparko]

McDonald's and Chick-Fil-A are good examples of how it's done - both poorly and correctly...

The CHRISTIAN based Chick-Fil-A has happier employees, better paid employees, college tuition programs, more loyal customers --- not because they got forced into a minimum pay raise situation, but because they realized they had to pay a little more for the quality young people they get at all their stores.

When you walk into a Chick-Fil-A, you are going to be greeted immediately with a smiling person who makes eye contact, and wants to make sure you have a good restaurant experience.

McDonald's? They just care about how many quadzillon burgers they can sell.

yep. its called the free market. people can "vote" with their wallet. which is what Trout was saying. if you keep patronizing the businesses who you think are greedy employers who dont care for their workers, then you really have no right to complain. You are actually helping them continue doing the wrong you are whining about.

[Catholicity]

I retired from the Air National Guard. Thanks for your post Cath. I can say that the guy on his feet 20 hrs a week isn't under 24 hour recall. On Sept 11, 2001, I was working for Verizon, and in a matter of 3 hours, I became a full time military member for 14 months, losing the Verizon job in the process. Very few "part-time" professions run the risk of being immediately called up and sent to a foreign country in a 24 hour period.

Bill, we might disagree about a lot of things,but I really try to hunt for what's right, even when I do or don't earn the respect for it.