UK woman arrested for silently praying across from abortion clinic

[eider]

What contradictions? One can be "subject to authority", fully recognizing the consequences of disobedience, willing to take the consequences, and still be "subject to authority".

Man is to obey government, but when government defies God, man can choose to obey God, and be subject to whatever the penalties of government may be.

Some Islamic terrorists might think a very similar thing. They can also obey God's commandments before all else.

I asked you before:- Would you deliberately violate a Public Spaces Protection Order in force around a venue?

[eider]

And yet Josephus writes of where his body was then entombed.

Got a source for that?

[eider]

All well and good and totally irrelevant to the case at hand.

Totally relevant in as much as those links show just how much difficulty abortion clinics are now having here.
These Orders are also written to protect other venues as well, of course. Some shops and businesses need such orders to be in force.

I must look to see just how much trouble this woman has previously caused........

[eider]

All of that is well and good but entirely irrelevant to what this woman was doing. Standing quietly praying silently.

............ within the limits of a Public Spaces Protection Order. !!!

[eider]

Praying in the Street near a clinic where this woman had previously been arrested, last November.

Matthew {6:5} And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are:] for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. {6:6} But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall
reward thee openly.

........... Jesus said it.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No just someone who realized she almost got caught by one of your trolls.

Oh come now!

No one compelled you to write this: My emphasis

By who, HA? Give me citations

And then to write this:

You must have replied while I was editing I edited it to ask who you are getting this from and I want citations. I am also interested in your answer to Diogenes question as well as your prof that Julius Caesar and the other Caesars are historical figures.

That second request would most certainly have completely derailed this thread had all of it received a response.

My suggestion to the others in this thread is to ignore HA's arguments about history and get back to the political ,social and theological ramifications of enacting thought control hate crime laws such as the one in the op.

There was no "hate crime law".

As the PSPO makes clear it applies to anyone; pro-life or pro-choice being in that area. My emphasis

https://www.birminghambeheard.org.uk...-consultation/

Feedback updated 15 Nov 2022

We asked

After an unprecedented response to the Robert Clinic Public Space Protection Order (PSPO) public consultation. We received more than 2,100 completed questionnaires from members of the public.

We can announce that the public were in overwhelming support of the introduction of a PSPO to protect service users and staff who attend the clinic from both pro-life and pro-choice vigils/protests.

Taking into consideration public opinion, evidence and submissions from representatives from both pro-ife and pro-choice groups we have made some amendments to the draft order.

The order was signed off by both Birmingham City Council and West Midlands Police on 7 September 2022 and will go live on Friday 16 September once the street signage has been installed.

A copy of the legal order will be published on the council’s website within the community safety section

Hence this was a restricted area and that restriction applied to anyone - pro-choice or pro-life.

Ms Vaughan-Spruce was loitering in an area covered by that PSPO and [according the police officer in the footage] did not live in that vicinity [there are private houses on the other side of the street] and had been seen there on previous occasions.

She was asked to voluntarily accompany the police to the police station for an interview. She refused and she was subsequently arrested. That is how English law operates, as I noted here:

https://www.jdspicer.co.uk/site/our-...ice-interview/

The first thing to note is that just because it is called a ‘voluntary’ interview, doesn’t mean you should simply refuse to attend. Although you can say no, this could result in the police deciding to arrest you so they can carry out a standard police interview instead.

A standard interview is one conducted under caution and the police officer made her aware of that by stating her rights.

So if a pro-choice individual had reacted in precisely the same way [i.e. by refusing to voluntarily accompany the police] that person would also have been arrested

However, given that the entire exchange was filmed by another person who then uploaded that video to social media, it appears evident that this was nothing but a publicity stunt intended to get precisely the response that sections of the press and many on this thread have demonstrated.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

What is the referent of "the word in its original Greek". For someone who is peculiar regarding language, you have language issues yourself.

Given that you post using the name of an ancient Greek Cynic philosopher I assumed you knew.

[tabibito]

Several sources, including our good buddies at Wikipedia say

The 1st century Jewish writer Josephus reported that Daniel's body lay in a tower in Ecbatana in Parthia, alongside the bodies of the kings of the Medes and Persians; later Jewish authorities said he was buried in Susa

which appears to cite Noegel, Scott B.; Wheeler, Brannon M. (2002). Historical Dictionary of Prophets in Islam and Judaism but don't bother saying where in Josephus this is mentioned.

Without a specific citation I'm willing to withdraw the statement until a quote can be found.

Thomas Constable. Notes on Daniel 2022 edition.
The dating of this book is one of the most controversial subjects in the field of Old Testament Introduction.[9] The controversy is not due to the obscurity of evidence but to the presuppositions of critics.
It is quite easy to determine when Daniel lived and ministered because of the many historical references in this book. As noted, his fellow prophet Ezekiel also referred to him (cf. Ezek. 14:14, 20; 28:3). However, because the book contains prophecies that Antiochus Epiphanies fulfilled in the second century B.C., many rationalistic critics, who deny that the Bible contains predictive prophecy, have maintained that Daniel could not have written it. They contend that it must have been written after Antiochus, namely, about 165 B.C.[10] Modern criticism follows Porphyry's ancient view. However, there are many evidences within the book itself that point to its origin in the sixth century B.C.

Yet another example of people [who do not accept that predictive prophecy is possible] attempting to discredit a prophetic book it seems. I'm not sure how they square their opinions with the references to Daniel by Ezekiel (also mentioned by Constable) though.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Thomas Constable. Notes on Daniel 2022 edition.
The dating of this book is one of the most controversial subjects in the field of Old Testament Introduction.[9] The controversy is not due to the obscurity of evidence but to the presuppositions of critics.
It is quite easy to determine when Daniel lived and ministered because of the many historical references in this book. As noted, his fellow prophet Ezekiel also referred to him (cf. Ezek. 14:14, 20; 28:3). However, because the book contains prophecies that Antiochus Epiphanies fulfilled in the second century B.C., many rationalistic critics, who deny that the Bible contains predictive prophecy, have maintained that Daniel could not have written it. They contend that it must have been written after Antiochus, namely, about 165 B.C.[10] Modern criticism follows Porphyry's ancient view. However, there are many evidences within the book itself that point to its origin in the sixth century B.C.

Yet another example of people [who do not accept that predictive prophecy is possible] attempting to discredit a prophetic book it seems. I'm not sure how they square their opinions with the references to Daniel by Ezekiel (also mentioned by Constable) though.

Careful now tabibito. Rum Tum Tugger may accuse you of attempting to derail this thread.

[rogue06]

The martyrdom of Hypatia is a myth. If you wish to deny the historicity of Daniel, surely you similarly question the works of say Plutarch.

Why

For the same reason that you say that you reject Scripture, it is hardly contemporaneous with the subjects he writes about. Plutarch didn't start writing his Lives until the 2nd century A.D. According to you, he has nothing to offer regarding such personages as say Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great, who lived hundreds of years earlier. Further, as you oh so love to kvetch, we don't have the original manuscripts (autographs). In fact, FWIU, the earliest surviving copy we have dates from the 10th century. And there's certainly no "extraneous corroborative evidence" for it.

[rogue06]

All of which leaves me wondering why you initially made this rather emphatic statement:

A response which, after I wrote this

Several sources, including our good buddies at Wikipedia say

The 1st century Jewish writer Josephus reported that Daniel's body lay in a tower in Ecbatana in Parthia, alongside the bodies of the kings of the Medes and Persians; later Jewish authorities said he was buried in Susa

which appears to cite Noegel, Scott B.; Wheeler, Brannon M. (2002). Historical Dictionary of Prophets in Islam and Judaism but don't bother saying where in Josephus this is mentioned.

leaves me wonder if you aren't very bright. Or maybe just inattentive

[Diogenes]

Oh dear......... Where I live (England) if you have got slapped with any kind of an Anti-Social-Behaviour-Order (ASBO) then it is because of your Behaviour!
......like approaching within a set distance of a venue the likes of which you have previously been a nuisance at.

The order in question specifically qualifies prayer as a kind of protesting. The arrest would have been for the proscribed behaviour of protesting, even silently in her head.

[rogue06]

Brill Online excerpts "Daniel, Tomb of," from the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World, but again the portion of the quote showing the specific Josephus citation is dropped and pay-walled.

Tweaking it since I'm not willing to pay $14 for the article I could get this much:

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus is the earliest known source to locate Daniel's tomb in Iran. He places the t…

[rogue06]

My suggestion to the others in this thread is to ignore HA

You could have simply left it at that

[rogue06]

Got a source for that?

Noegel, Scott B.; Wheeler, Brannon M. (2002). Historical Dictionary of Prophets in Islam and Judaism

Brill Online excerpts "Daniel, Tomb of," from the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World

Both appear to confirm it, but as I said, I haven't seen a citation just the assertion.