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Desantis revision of Native American history

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  • Desantis revision of Native American history



    Source: https://www.wral.com/fact-check-desantis-says-u-s-wasn-t-built-on-stolen-land/20594671/



    Fact check: DeSantis says U.S. wasn't built on stolen land

    In the only gubernatorial debate before the Nov. 8 election, Gov. Ron DeSantis said: "You have people that are teaching -- and actually his running mate has said this in the past -- that teaching the United States was built on stolen land. That is inappropriate for our schools; it's not true." PolitiFact checks his claim.

    As Florida's governor, Republican Ron DeSantis has repeatedly stated his conviction that leaders need to fight attempts to "indoctrinate students" in classrooms.
    In the only gubernatorial debate before the Nov. 8 election, Gov. DeSantis contrasted his record on education with that of Democratic challenger Charlie Crist and Crist's running mate Karla Hernández-Mats.

    "You have people that are teaching — and actually his running mate has said this in the past — that teaching the United States was built on stolen land," DeSantis said Oct. 24. "That is inappropriate for our schools; it's not true."

    We wondered what DeSantis was referring to and whether he was right in his assessment of whether the U.S. was built on "stolen land."

    DeSantis' campaign did not get back to us. But his remark echoed tweets from Christina Pushaw, rapid response director for DeSantis' re-election campaign. One tweet included a screenshot of a June 24, 2018, Facebook post from United Teachers of Dade, where Hernández-Mats, a former special education teacher, has been president since 2016.

    The Facebook post included an image of a sign that read: "No one is illegal on stolen land." Hernández-Mats did not respond to specific questions about the image. The post was shared at a time when U.S. immigration policies were dominating the news.

    We reached out to historians of Native and non-Native descent. All of them said it is well documented that the U.S. acquired Native American land through dubious treaties and, at times, forcefully confiscated ancestral territories to bolster the country's expansion.

    "As a general statement, yes, the United States stole land from Native Americans," said Philip Deloria, a Native American history professor at Harvard University.

    Sometimes the U.S. and Native American tribes struck treaties that defined boundaries and determined land sale prices and forms of compensation. Other times, tribes signed land-ceding agreements under duress.

    Deloria said the U.S. often placed compensation for these deals in U.S.-controlled trust funds or promised payment over a number of years, but then failed to follow through.

    The Sioux Agreement of 1877 is an example of the U.S. acquiring land from Native Americans through fraudulent practices and treaty violations.

    Fact check: Trump says he sent agents to stop Florida 'steal' and help DeSantis win In 1868, the U.S. signed a treaty recognizing the Black Hills, a 7-million-acre South Dakota mountain range, as part of the Great Sioux Reservation. It set the land "apart for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupation" of the Sioux, a Native American tribe.
    The treaty between the U.S. government and the Sioux said that non-Native people "are not permitted to pass over, settle upon, or reside in the territory." Speculation that the Black Hills contained gold, however, led miners to trespass on Sioux territory.

    The U.S. then moved to negotiate with the Sioux to acquire the land. The deal fell through, which led to a war and hundreds of deaths. The tribe later surrendered and signed a treaty that ceded the Black Hills to the U.S.

    The U.S. Court of Federal Claims ruled in 1975 that the Sioux are entitled to damages of around $17 million for this land seizure. The court remarked: "A more ripe and rank case of dishonorable dealings will never, in all probability, be found in our history."

    In 1980, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the U.S. government had acquired the Black Hills through "unfair and dishonorable dealing" and affirmed that it owed the Sioux tribe "just compensation," including interest.

    In a dissenting opinion, Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote, "There was tragedy, deception, barbarity, and virtually every other vice known to man in the 300-year history of the expansion of the original 13 Colonies into a Nation which now embraces more than three million square miles."

    The U.S. sometimes bought Native land from European countries, like France, and claimed ownership even though "France did not treaty with the many tribes who lived upon that land," said Randy Woodley, director of intercultural and indigenous studies at George Fox University.

    Fact check: Biden takes credit for increase in Social Security checksThe federal government also forcibly removed Native Americans from their ancestral lands after former President Andrew Jackson signed the Indian Removal Act of 1830. That expulsion became known as the "Trail of Tears," which killed thousands of Native Americans.
    The Seminoles resisted relocation, and the result was a half-century of warfare.
    Andrew Frank, a Florida State University professor who specializes in the history of the Seminoles, said the U.S. annexed much of Florida through treaties that a majority of the tribal leaders opposed. The U.S. military drove out more than 3,000 Seminoles from the state, according to the Florida Department of State. Around 300 members of the tribe remained in Florida.

    "The post-Civil War period is full of people being compressed, contained, and confined onto small reservations within their territory, in order to accommodate non-Native settlement," Deloria told PolitiFact.

    In 1946, the federal government created the Indian Claims Commission to resolve legal claims that the U.S. obtained Native American land through questionable or fraudulent economic transactions.
    It lasted until 1978, and unsettled claims were transferred to the U.S. Court of Claims. The commission found that the U.S. government's payment of $152,500 to the Seminoles for about 23 million acres of land in Florida was "clearly unconscionable."
    The Indian Claims Commission completed 546 cases, awarding about $818 million to Native American tribes.

    "It is historically inaccurate to say the land was not stolen from Native Americans," Woodley said.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-26-2022, 01:48 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    As we all know Native Americans never went to war with each other and "stole" land from other tribes.

    Of course though, Palestinians don't occupy land "stolen" from the Jews.

    Edit: Homo spaiens sapiens need to give land acknowledgements to Neanderthals.
    Last edited by Diogenes; 11-26-2022, 02:06 PM.
    P1) If , then I win.

    P2)

    C) I win.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      Source: https://www.wral.com/fact-check-desantis-says-u-s-wasn-t-built-on-stolen-land/20594671/



      Fact check: DeSantis says U.S. wasn't built on stolen land

      In the only gubernatorial debate before the Nov. 8 election, Gov. Ron DeSantis said: "You have people that are teaching -- and actually his running mate has said this in the past -- that teaching the United States was built on stolen land. That is inappropriate for our schools; it's not true." PolitiFact checks his claim.

      As Florida's governor, Republican Ron DeSantis has repeatedly stated his conviction that leaders need to fight attempts to "indoctrinate students" in classrooms.
      In the only gubernatorial debate before the Nov. 8 election, Gov. DeSantis contrasted his record on education with that of Democratic challenger Charlie Crist and Crist's running mate Karla Hernández-Mats.

      "You have people that are teaching — and actually his running mate has said this in the past — that teaching the United States was built on stolen land," DeSantis said Oct. 24. "That is inappropriate for our schools; it's not true."

      We wondered what DeSantis was referring to and whether he was right in his assessment of whether the U.S. was built on "stolen land."

      DeSantis' campaign did not get back to us. But his remark echoed tweets from Christina Pushaw, rapid response director for DeSantis' re-election campaign. One tweet included a screenshot of a June 24, 2018, Facebook post from United Teachers of Dade, where Hernández-Mats, a former special education teacher, has been president since 2016.

      The Facebook post included an image of a sign that read: "No one is illegal on stolen land." Hernández-Mats did not respond to specific questions about the image. The post was shared at a time when U.S. immigration policies were dominating the news.

      We reached out to historians of Native and non-Native descent. All of them said it is well documented that the U.S. acquired Native American land through dubious treaties and, at times, forcefully confiscated ancestral territories to bolster the country's expansion.

      "As a general statement, yes, the United States stole land from Native Americans," said Philip Deloria, a Native American history professor at Harvard University.

      Sometimes the U.S. and Native American tribes struck treaties that defined boundaries and determined land sale prices and forms of compensation. Other times, tribes signed land-ceding agreements under duress.

      Deloria said the U.S. often placed compensation for these deals in U.S.-controlled trust funds or promised payment over a number of years, but then failed to follow through.

      The Sioux Agreement of 1877 is an example of the U.S. acquiring land from Native Americans through fraudulent practices and treaty violations.

      Fact check: Trump says he sent agents to stop Florida 'steal' and help DeSantis win In 1868, the U.S. signed a treaty recognizing the Black Hills, a 7-million-acre South Dakota mountain range, as part of the Great Sioux Reservation. It set the land "apart for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupation" of the Sioux, a Native American tribe.
      The treaty between the U.S. government and the Sioux said that non-Native people "are not permitted to pass over, settle upon, or reside in the territory." Speculation that the Black Hills contained gold, however, led miners to trespass on Sioux territory.

      The U.S. then moved to negotiate with the Sioux to acquire the land. The deal fell through, which led to a war and hundreds of deaths. The tribe later surrendered and signed a treaty that ceded the Black Hills to the U.S.

      The U.S. Court of Federal Claims ruled in 1975 that the Sioux are entitled to damages of around $17 million for this land seizure. The court remarked: "A more ripe and rank case of dishonorable dealings will never, in all probability, be found in our history."

      In 1980, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the U.S. government had acquired the Black Hills through "unfair and dishonorable dealing" and affirmed that it owed the Sioux tribe "just compensation," including interest.

      In a dissenting opinion, Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote, "There was tragedy, deception, barbarity, and virtually every other vice known to man in the 300-year history of the expansion of the original 13 Colonies into a Nation which now embraces more than three million square miles."

      The U.S. sometimes bought Native land from European countries, like France, and claimed ownership even though "France did not treaty with the many tribes who lived upon that land," said Randy Woodley, director of intercultural and indigenous studies at George Fox University.

      Fact check: Biden takes credit for increase in Social Security checksThe federal government also forcibly removed Native Americans from their ancestral lands after former President Andrew Jackson signed the Indian Removal Act of 1830. That expulsion became known as the "Trail of Tears," which killed thousands of Native Americans.
      The Seminoles resisted relocation, and the result was a half-century of warfare.
      Andrew Frank, a Florida State University professor who specializes in the history of the Seminoles, said the U.S. annexed much of Florida through treaties that a majority of the tribal leaders opposed. The U.S. military drove out more than 3,000 Seminoles from the state, according to the Florida Department of State. Around 300 members of the tribe remained in Florida.

      "The post-Civil War period is full of people being compressed, contained, and confined onto small reservations within their territory, in order to accommodate non-Native settlement," Deloria told PolitiFact.

      In 1946, the federal government created the Indian Claims Commission to resolve legal claims that the U.S. obtained Native American land through questionable or fraudulent economic transactions.
      It lasted until 1978, and unsettled claims were transferred to the U.S. Court of Claims. The commission found that the U.S. government's payment of $152,500 to the Seminoles for about 23 million acres of land in Florida was "clearly unconscionable."
      The Indian Claims Commission completed 546 cases, awarding about $818 million to Native American tribes.

      "It is historically inaccurate to say the land was not stolen from Native Americans," Woodley said.

      © Copyright Original Source

      Sure it is 'stolen land'.

      It was stolen land when the Lakota drove the Cheyenne and the Crow from the Black Hills, it was stolen land when the Cheyenne and Crow drove the Kiowa and Arapaho out from the Black Hills, it was stolen land when the Kiowa and Arapaho drove the Arikara out from the Black Hills. My wife's people, the Ute, had land stolen from them by the Shoshone.

      And so on and so forth, all across the US, the same sorts of things occurred long before the US existed and did it all more successfully than any before them.
      Last edited by Gondwanaland; 11-26-2022, 02:11 PM.
      "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
      -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


      "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
      - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        Sure it is 'stolen land'. It was stolen land when the Lakota drove the Cheyenne and the Crow from the Black Hills, it was stolen land when the Cheyenne and Crow drove the Kiowa and Arapaho out from the Black Hills, it was stolen land when the Kiowa and Arapaho drove theArikara out from the Black Hills. And so on and so forth, all across the US, the same sorts of things occurred long before the US existed and did it all more successfully than any before them.
        Duck, Bob and Weasel par exellance.

        Is what DeSantis said true?
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
          As we all know Native Americans never went to war with each other and "stole" land from other tribes.

          Of course though, Palestinians don't occupy land "stolen" from the Jews.

          Edit: Homo spaiens sapiens need to give land acknowledgements to Neanderthals.
          Duck, Bob and Weasel par exellance.

          Is what DeSantis said true?

          Maybe DeSantis believes the USA bought the land in Florida to build golf courses/
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            Duck, Bob and Weasel par exellance.

            Is what DeSantis said true?
            Who cares what DeSantis said. The fact is the natives were slaughtering each other and taking each others territories long before the white man showed up. We just happen to be the bigger more advanced tribe,
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              Duck, Bob and Weasel par exellance.

              Is what DeSantis said true?
              As my post clearly states, no, you braindead twit. It's been stolen land long before the US came along. Which you source leaves out.

              Now, will you be giving back the land you live on?
              "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
              -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


              "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
              - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                Duck, Bob and Weasel par exellance.
                At least use the Oxford comma.




                Is what DeSantis said true?

                Maybe DeSantis believes the USA bought the land in Florida to build golf courses/
                Did Native American tribes "steal" land from other tribes? Do the Palestinians live on "stolen land"? Do Homo sapiens sapiens live on "stolen" land?


                Obviously Europeans conquered the Americas from native groups and we improved it. It's called adverse possession.

                Also Native Americans on both continents stole the land from nature. Think of the poor American lion.
                P1) If , then I win.

                P2)

                C) I win.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Who cares what DeSantis said. The fact is the natives were slaughtering each other and taking each others territories long before the white man showed up. We just happen to be the bigger more advanced tribe,
                  That's Indigenophic. How dare you!
                  P1) If , then I win.

                  P2)

                  C) I win.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Since it's stuff like this that inevitably leads to "reparations", I'll just post this:

                    [As of August 9th, 2012], the Shakopee Mdewakanton are believed to be the richest tribe in American history as measured by individual personal wealth: Each adult, according to court records and confirmed by one tribal member, receives a monthly payment of around $84,000, or $1.08 million a year.

                    Emphasis added. Per NYT
                    P1) If , then I win.

                    P2)

                    C) I win.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Fortunately, Texas was obtained from Mexico in an incredibly polite and civil manner.

                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Fortunately, Texas was obtained from Mexico in an incredibly polite and civil manner.

                        Right, in the same polite and civil manner that the Spanish took it from the natives...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Right, in the same polite and civil manner that the Spanish took it from the natives...
                          I remember the first time I took some "New Texans" to the "Birthplace of Texas" museum at "Old Washington" --- the museum was showing a film about the history of Texas, and my friends were a bit.. um... surprised... at the manner in which Texas became a state.

                          One of them, still perplexed, said, "so, you promised to live peacefully in 'their land' then kicked them out and dared them to come back?"
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            At least use the Oxford comma.






                            Did Native American tribes "steal" land from other tribes? Do the Palestinians live on "stolen land"? Do Homo sapiens sapiens live on "stolen" land?


                            Obviously Europeans conquered the Americas from native groups and we improved it. It's called adverse possession.

                            Also Native Americans on both continents stole the land from nature. Think of the poor American lion.
                            Just had to amen this for promoting the Oxford comma.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Then there is Manhattan Island, originally named Mannahatta, a Lenape term meaning "island of many hills". Originally discovered by Verrazzano in 1524, later mapped by Henry Hudson in 1609, and was purchased by the Dutch supposedly from the Canarsee Indians, who lived in what is now Brooklyn and Long Island, for sixty guilders (or golden pennies). Despite the current jokes that it was sold for a dollar, that is estimated by historians James and Michelle Nevius to be about $2,600 to $15,600. But the problem is that the Canarsee tribe sold land to the Dutch that wasn't theirs: It belonged to the Lenape.
                              When I Survey....

                              Comment

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