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Desantis revision of Native American history

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  • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
    Well, first, that expression was in dicta, so it doesn't really have binding force for other decisions. Still, let's look at that phrase "distinct community occupying its own territory" in context of its paragraph:

    "The Cherokee nation, then, is a distinct community, occupying its own territory, with boundaries accurately described, in which the laws of Georgia can have no force, and which the citizens of Georgia have no right to enter but with the assent of the Cherokees themselves, or in conformity with treaties and with the acts of Congress. The whole intercourse between the United States and this nation is, by our Constitution and laws, vested in the Government of the United States."

    The whole point of making the reference with it being a "distinct community occupying its own territory" was how Georgia lacked the required jurisdiction over their territory to pass the law restricting white people from living with the Indians, because only the government of the United States was authorized to make such laws. Thus its decision is entirely inapplicable to laws of the federal government. If the US government had passed the exact same law that Georgia did, then it would have been constitutional.

    If Jackson were Georgia Governor, you might have a point. But the whole point of Worcester v. Georgia was that it was saying that the things Georgia was trying to do could only be done by the federal government. It makes no sense to say that somehow means the federal government can't do something.
    We will have to agree to disagree. I believe the citation by Marshall acknowledges the ownership of the land as Native American Territory regardless of the issue with the State of Georgia, which is the issue in the history of Native American lands that were legally acknowledged as owned and 'territory' of the Native Americans.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      We will have to agree to disagree. I believe the citation by Marshall acknowledges the ownership of the land as Native American Territory regardless of the issue with the State of Georgia, which is the issue in the history of Native American lands that were legally acknowledged as owned and 'territory' of the Native Americans.
      Why didn't you say so in the first place? That's not at all the same thing as violating the Supreme Court decision. In any case, Terraceth has pointed out that the "expression was in dicta, do it doesn't really have binding force for other decisions."
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        We will have to agree to disagree. I believe the citation by Marshall acknowledges the ownership of the land as Native American Territory regardless of the issue with the State of Georgia, which is the issue in the history of Native American lands that were legally acknowledged as owned and 'territory' of the Native Americans.
        "Agree to disagree" is a phrase often abused by the intellectually dishonest who don't want to admit an error.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          "Agree to disagree" is a phrase often abused by the intellectually dishonest who don't want to admit an error.
          You pants down mooning bias is showing.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Why didn't you say so in the first place? That's not at all the same thing as violating the Supreme Court decision. In any case, Terraceth has pointed out that the "expression was in dicta, do it doesn't really have binding force for other decisions."
            I referred to the citation by Marshal that the Native American territory was legally acknowledged as theirs before it was stolen.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              You pants down mooning bias is showing.
              Well, not so much bias but simply pointing out the fact that Terraceth proved you dead wrong, and your only response was to "agree to disagree".
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                Well, not so much bias but simply pointing out the fact that Terraceth proved you dead wrong, and your only response was to "agree to disagree".
                Nothing has been proved either way. Also, the actions of President Jackson and other administrations concerning the 'Trail of Tears' would be considered crimes against humanity today
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Nothing has been proved either way.
                  Tell yourself that enough and you might even start to believe it.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                    I referred to the citation by Marshal that the Native American territory was legally acknowledged as theirs before it was stolen.
                    Yes, that's the quotation (not citation; Marshall wasn't citing anything, which was Terraceth's point) referred to by Terraceth, and which I quoted. I'd recommend that you stick to subjects in which you're at least marginally competent; you're clearly out of your depth here.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      I'd recommend that you stick to subjects in which you're at least marginally competent...
                      And those would be?

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        And those would be?
                        One Big Pig's remark was essentially a suggestion for shuny to stop posting entirely.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          One Big Pig's remark was essentially a suggestion for shuny to stop posting entirely.
                          Never! I need comic relief!
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Yes, that's the quotation (not citation; Marshall wasn't citing anything, which was Terraceth's point) referred to by Terraceth, and which I quoted. I'd recommend that you stick to subjects in which you're at least marginally competent; you're clearly out of your depth here.
                            Marchal wa snot citing anything. He was making a legal statement of fact that it was a Native American legal territory.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              We will have to agree to disagree. I believe the citation by Marshall acknowledges the ownership of the land as Native American Territory regardless of the issue with the State of Georgia, which is the issue in the history of Native American lands that were legally acknowledged as owned and 'territory' of the Native Americans.
                              Here is the problem. Even if we accept that "the citation by Marshall acknowledges the ownership of the land as Native American Territory regardless of the issue with the State of Georgia" it still doesn't support your original contention, that the Trail of Tears was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Everything you just said, even if completely true, has no bearing whatsoever on its constitutionality. Thus there was no violation of Worcester v. Georgia by the Trail of Tears.

                              Thus the claim you kept making that I took issue with--"in violation of the Supreme Court decision"--is simply not supported by the Supreme Court decision you cited. That's a popular misconception of the decision, granted, but that's not what it said. It wasn't a decision about the Trail of Tears and the one thing it did weigh in on--it asserting certain laws affecting the Native American tribes must be done by the federal government, not the states--is inapplicable to the issue as well.

                              Comment

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