I am surprised...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

A transgender or LGBTQ person holding any office in any denomination is of course an abomination and goes against the clear written word of the Bible.

Which precise "clear written word in the Bible"?

[Ronson]

that no one has mentioned this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...sgender-bishop

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America has installed its first openly transgender bishop in a service held in San Francisco’s Grace Cathedral on Saturday.

San Francisco. Say no more.

[rogue06]

Is there a clear anti-trans teaching in the bible?

Closest would be

Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 22:5

“A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

© Copyright Original Source

And IIRC, the word used by Paul in I Corinthians 6:9 that gets translated as male prostitutes or homosexuality, literally means "effeminate men."

[rogue06]

There sure is. Right at the beginning. Genesis 1

²⁷ So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Yeah that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for sexual fluidity.

[CivilDiscourse]

I was answering the request put to me by mossrose. You clearly missed that.

No I didn't miss that. I'm pointing out that this entire thing is coming from a reply to cowpoke that doesn't address his comment at all.

[mossrose]

Yeah that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for sexual fluidity.

The verses you added are also very clear.

[NorrinRadd]

Closest would be

Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 22:5

“A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

© Copyright Original Source

And IIRC, the word used by Paul in I Corinthians 6:9 that gets translated as male prostitutes or homosexuality, literally means "effeminate men."

I think more recent scholarship regards it as the "passive" or "recipient" partner in homosexual intercourse.

[mossrose]

I think more recent scholarship regards it as the "passive" or "recipient" partner in homosexual intercourse.

Regardless, the message is clear.

[Starlight]

Some might find it strange that disproportionately high losses occur from the progressive end of the Christian spectrum.

It's a case of moderates being scared off by extremists.

Consider, as an analogous case, the Trump presidency and what effect that had on people who viewed themselves as Republicans. The extremists were all good with it and were saying "best President ever" etc, while the moderates in the party were rethinking whether they could any longer be associated with the Republican party. The people who ended up quitting the Republican party as a result, were from the moderate end of the spectrum, because they felt so negatively about it and felt they couldn't have any association with it.

In the same way, in recent years, the fundamentalists in Christianity have been taking public stands on social issues, and this has been scaring off the moderates. If you look at survey results from recent decades as to what reasons ex-Christians cite for no longer being Christian, the anti-LGBT stances taken by Christians feature heavily. My country's current leader cited it as her reason for leaving Mormonism. Basically the louder the extremists get in the public sphere, the faster the moderates are going to jump ship.

[NorrinRadd]

that no one has mentioned this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...sgender-bishop

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America has installed its first openly transgender bishop in a service held in San Francisco’s Grace Cathedral on Saturday.

The Rev Megan Rohrer will lead one of the church’s 65 synods, overseeing nearly 200 congregations in northern California and northern Nevada.

“My call is ... to be up to the same messy, loving things I was up to before,” Rohrer told worshippers. “But mostly, if you’ll let me, and I think you will, my hope is to love you and beyond that, to love what you love.”

Rohrer was elected in May to serve a six-year term as bishop of the Sierra Pacific Synod after its current bishop announced his retirement.

“I step into this role because a diverse community of Lutherans in northern California and Nevada prayerfully and thoughtfully voted to do a historic thing,” Rohrer said in a statement. “My installation will celebrate all that is possible when we trust God to shepherd us forward.”

Rohrer, who uses the pronoun “they,” previously served as pastor of Grace Lutheran Church in San Francisco and a chaplain coordinator for the city’s police department, and also helped minister to the city’s homeless and LGTBQ+ communities. They studied religion at Augustana University in their hometown of Sioux Falls, South Dakota, before moving to California to pursue master’s and doctoral degrees at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley.

Rohrer became one of seven LGBTQ+ pastors accepted by the progressive Evangelical Lutheran church in 2010 after it allowed ordination of pastors in same-sex relationships. Rohrer is married and has two children.

The church is one of the largest Christian denominations in the United States, with about 3.3 million members.

I wonder what the laity will make of it. Is 3.3 million members one of the largest Christian denominations in the US? Or is that a reference to churches and not individuals?

I took the risk of posting a similar link on my Facebook page, and commenting unfavorably -- "risk" because most of my family is ELCA, and my college roommate is an ELCA pastor. I haven't checked FB in about nine or ten hours, so I don't know if there have been any responses.

My own theology is *fairly* close to Assemblies of God, Foursquare Church, and Vineyard.

[Starlight]

There sure is. Right at the beginning. Genesis 1

²⁷ So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

I see absolutely zero relevance in this verse.

It's a statement about something God did, not a command to humans about what they are allowed to do or not do. It reminds me of the saying "if God had meant men to fly he would have given them wings", the stupidity of which is implicitly a point about the complete fallacy of trying to reason from what God created to rules about human conduct. God created humans naked, but I don't see any Christians getting upset at the concept of wearing clothes.

[mossrose]

I see absolutely zero relevance in this verse.

It's a statement about something God did, not a command to humans about what they are allowed to do or not do. It reminds me of the saying "if God had meant men to fly he would have given them wings", the stupidity of which is implicitly a point about the complete fallacy of trying to reason from what God created to rules about human conduct. God created humans naked, but I don't see any Christians getting upset at the concept of wearing clothes.

It's not my fault that you have no clue. Sorry.

We understand who you are, and anything that is shown to you that is very clear, it won't matter, because you will reject it as it doesn't fit your "lifestyle".

[Starlight]

Closest would be

Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 22:5

“A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

© Copyright Original Source

Well done. That's actually a good answer.

I do wonder if you've dutifully obeyed the nearby commands of:

Deu 22:12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

and

Deu 22:11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

Many clothes are blends these days, so it must limit your shopping choices to diligently obey this chapter of Deuteronomy.

[mossrose]

Well done. That's actually a good answer.

I do wonder if you've dutifully obeyed the nearby commands of:

Deu 22:12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

and

Deu 22:11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

Many clothes are blends these days, so it must limit your shopping choices to diligently obey this chapter of Deuteronomy.

Once again, you don't understand the concept of the new covenant brought in by Christ. If you read Acts, and the other NT books, you will see how the Lord did away with the old covenant.

And you've made my point for me, that no matter what you are presented with, you will reject it.

[Terraceth]

I wonder what the laity will make of it. Is 3.3 million members one of the largest Christian denominations in the US? Or is that a reference to churches and not individuals?

Well, according to Wikipedia (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...hip_statistics), the largest denominations of groups in the US that identify as Christian are, in order, rounded to the nearest million:
1. Catholic Church (71 million)
2. Southern Baptist Convention (15 million)
3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (7 million)
4. United Methodist Church (7 million)
5. Church of God in Christ (5 million)
6. National Baptist Convention, US (5 million)
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (3 million)
8. National Baptist Convention of America (3 million)
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church (3 million)
10. Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (2 million)

I suppose someone might object to some of these (most obviously #3) as being counted Christian denominations, but again for this we are focusing on groups that identify themselves as Christians, in order to avoid theological squabbles as to what counts as a Christian.

The United Methodist Church is presumably going to drop down in membership a decent amount whenever they get around to sorting out the planned split between the conservative and liberal factions--the split was supposed to be hashed out in 2020 but COVID put it on hold.

This is not surprising. Conservative Lutherans split from the ECLA over 10 years ago over them allowing openly gay pastors. They have just further gone down that wide road to hell.

I don't know if I'd call the NALC (the group that split from them, the North American Lutheran Church) "conservative." Sure, they found the ELCA too liberal, but that makes them conservative relative to them. The NALC on their own website describes themselves with this: "The NALC embodies the theological center of Lutheranism in North America and stands firmly within the global Lutheran mainstream." The LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which is in the above list) would be what I would call conservative; the NALC falls somewhere between the ELCA and LCMS.