Is there a cure for homophobia? Introducing Lovelace......

[Starlight]

Why doesn’t the LGBT movement stop telling people what they can and cannot think, or say, about the movement?

Given the loooooong history of Christians charging others for heresy, up to and including burning them at the stake, that seems to be extremely hypocritical.

And before you say that's all in the past, this site has plenty of policies around what people can say about Christianity, enforced by you. I have no doubt that in your mind it's totally justified when you do it. I'm sure LGBT people think the same when they do it.

[Starlight]

You confuse an unwillingness to joyfully embrace the LGBT lifestyle with a form of hatred.

No, the hatred is itself pretty clear. There are plenty of people who aren't LGBT themselves who are supportive of the rights of people who are.

It's you guys who are confusing your own hatred of LGBT people with religious teachings you believe about the subject. Your tricking yourselves into thinking your opposition is purely intellectual, logical, and based in a neutral and scholarly interpretation of biblical texts, when actually anyone interacting with your for more than 5 seconds can easily see it's emotional and gut-driven, and based on disgust and hatred.

[mossrose]

Given the loooooong history of Christians charging others for heresy, up to and including burning them at the stake, that seems to be extremely hypocritical.

And before you say that's all in the past, this site has plenty of policies around what people can say about Christianity, enforced by you. I have no doubt that in your mind it's totally justified when you do it. I'm sure LGBT people think the same when they do it.

Perhaps you should make your comments to your fellow LGBT proponent, HA, who originally suggested that people should mind their business and not foist their beliefs on other people.

The hypocrite is apparent here, and it isn't me.

[eider]

Refusing to quit smoking, or cut back on drinking. Go on a diet and start exercising. Even be sure to take your medication(s) when you're supposed to.

Many people spend a lot of money just to ignore the advice they paid for.

Btw, I got my first shot earlier this week.

Yes, I think that was a good move. The Delta variant is absolutely raging across Britain but because 80%+ of all the adults have been jabbed the hospital admissions are down and the daily death counts are low. We are preparing to deliver an autumn booster for everybody over 50, plus vulnerable people. If that doesn't convince more adults to get the jab as well then nothing will.

[eider]

People who actually read the Bible for themselves, rather than what others say about it, know that your comments are not based on the evidence supplied by the Bible.

People who actually read the accounts of what Jesus did in, say, the first three days of that last week, and then read G-John will see that I write the truth.

So I don't think that you actually know what Jesus and disciples did, say, on day 1 of their last week in Jerusalem. Maybe you cannot have read it.

And you cannot show me in G-John where he tells of his amazing experience in the Transfiguration …. or many other experiences. Strange.

[eider]

eider?

Hi..........
And so you say.
This point doesn't count. That point does........ all according to CivilDiscourse.
Well many folks say that LGBT characteristics and lives do count, are important to them, and should be accepted in our communities as natural to them.

Tell me again......... do you object to LGBT folks? If so, why? If not, why?

[eider]

I'm not sure what you're going on about. The "whoosh" was for Hypocritical_Alexandria who responded to rogue's question by simply restating her assertion, but if it's scripture you're interested in...

Scripture Verse: Leviticus 18:22

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Romans 1:26-27

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

© Copyright Original Source

Mountain Man......... Paul's rants were caused by his belief in the Laws of Moses, maybe a bit like you? And that is probable why he ignored the messages of Jesus.

And so to the Laws of Moses. I haven't got time to produce a detailed account to show you how wrong you are, suffice to offer a precis of all to show you how wayward some Christians can be as they indulge in one abomination, then scream and call out against another.

Remember .......... a long time ago these sins caused sickness and weakness amongst the people. Here you go.......

Your God had been with other peoples before the Israelites, but they had not kept his laws for health, strength, etc and so had failed. Leviticus {18:25} ...abominations.....

But if they would keep his laws then they would survive.....
Deuteronomy {8:1}

And so infected foods, Leviticus {7:17} , carrion eating fish Leviticus {11:10}, carrion eating birds Leviticus {11:13} many kinds of insects and ground dwellers
Leviticus {11:23} Leviticus {11:41} and more were abominations and could spread sickness.....

Only closed couples producing children were of value, and any other kind of coupling could spread..... sickness. Ergo abominations. One example here, Gays: Leviticus {20:13}

But greed destroyed cohesion amongst the people, thus:- Deuteronomy {7:25} The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God.

Mountain Man......... do you keep silver or gold?

And all other religions were abominations, and to be killed. Deuteronomy {13:13

Do you believe in delivering execution to us all?

And Magis, spiritualists and more..... abominations.

Deuteronomy {18:10} There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, {18:11} Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. {18:12} For all that do these things [are] an abomination

Will you have them executed? Christian Spiritualists, even?

And people who appear to be cross dressed. Abominations. Would you see them executed? Not many true Scots would survive, I'm guessing. Deuteronomy {22:5}

Prostitutes and Dogs? Abominations! Deuteronmy . {23:18}

My Wife's Uncle and Aunt. Divorced and later, remarried. Abomination! Execution! Deuteronomy {24:4}

Weights and measures fraud? Abomination! Deuteronomy {25:14}

And the list goes on........... All were once sins which weakened the people. But not today.

And any who just pick out the old laws about Gays, but who ignore the others........... what would you call them?

[eider]

It is possible that the Levitical injunctions are more to do with fertility than moral opprobrium. The repudiation of homosexual intercourse may therefore arise out of the doctrine of creation and the "be fruitful and multiply" injunction. Permitting homosexuality may have been viewed as directly flouting this divine order.

There is also the possibility that, given the fact that Hebrew society was male dominated, there was a view that if men had sex one would effectively be adopting the role of the culturally inferior female. A similar attitude existed within Roman society. For a Roman citizen to penetrate another man [slave] was considered neither immoral nor shameful but for a Roman man to permit himself to be penetrated was an act of humiliation whereby he renounced his masculine role and subordinated himself to another, as did a woman.

If this was also one of the underlying reasons for the Hebrew proscriptions against homosexual acts it may explain why the Hebrew bible is silent on lesbianism. Clearly in a society where women were deemed culturally inferior neither could be perceived to adopt a dominant [male] role during sexual encounters.

Many Christians commit abominations mentioned in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Eating various unscaled fish, collecting gold and silver to themselves, etc etc......

But back in the day all of the many abominations could spread infection, sickness, lack of cohesion etc etc.....
Today? Thousands of years later we can avoid most of these infections and sicknesses,. although excessive wealth (gold/silver) seems to be a common sickness, still.

[eider]

Things may be different across the pond but your last sentence would get you branded as a homophobe over here now. Simply acknowledging and supporting is no longer enough. You must fully embrace it. And there were SJWs grimly determined to weed out those who they suspect don't.

Rubbish!
Extremists can be found in any following, but I happily, merrily debate extremists, whomever they might be.

Until the SCOTUS finally put an end to it they were busy searching for bakers, florists, photographers etc. and demanding that they participate in their wedding ceremonies or have your business shut down. Yeah, that just sounds like merely wanting to be accepted and treated as equals

They? All of them?

[eider]

The LGBT movement certainly has allowed its thoughts and words to become actions, hasn’t it? Like vile parades exposing themselves and forcing small children to share bathrooms and dressing rooms with alleged transgendered people or forcing children, and their parents, to accept school curriculums that actively teach the lifestyle as normal. You mean those thoughts and words?

More or less, yes.
There are large parades in the UK called Pride-Parades and these are very big. But over the years they have become like carnivals where anybody can join in.
Infants here are usually accompanied by adults in toilets and changing rooms, and to allow them anywhere unaccompanied is a crime now.
Yes, gay men and women can adopt children and these young are no more at risk in these families than kids raised in straight families.
Yes, our school teaching plans and curriculums are strongly enforced. Recently Jewish schools and madrassas have lost financial aid or even been closed for leaving the national plans.
Christian schools must accept mostly any capable child (I think) .

Pastors in this country are thrown in jail or fined for speaking out against homosexuality. It is now "hate speech" here to refer to someone as the gender they were born with instead of their alleged claim to be another gender. Is that what you mean by keeping thoughts and words from becoming actions?

They would be fined here as well... That could be a crime here as well. Hate speech or 'Incitement to commit crimes' might be claimed in some instances.
Some Religious priests all out for execution of gays and other OT crimes........ but these people may actually be encouraging the masses to vacate religion.

How about a whole month celebrating that lifestyle, when the thoughts and words of that group should be kept in the bedrooms of those who insist that those who disagree with them should mind their own business and stay out of their private life’s? Is that what you mean by keeping thoughts and words from becoming actions?

Ah! I don't know how to go back to read what I wrote, nor see your post which included those words.
Thoughts against mostly anything are fine. Yes?
Words against mostly anything are ok as long as they don't incite hatred or crimes.
Actions ........ against things, people, ........... no. Not good. Can't be good.

I think that people can demonstrate for or against a 'thing' here, but anti-lgbt demonstrations may attract people who start to call out incitements etc..... I don't know what our police would do about those.

How about, as has already been mentioned in this thread, LGBT folk actively seeking out Christian bakers and florists and venues and suing them when they refuse to take an order from them because of their Christian convictions, when the same LGBT folk who own bakeries and flower shops and rental facilities, at the same time, refuse service to a Christian who wants a cake, let's say, to celebrate God's ordained plan for the marriage of one man and one woman? Do you mean keeping those thoughts and words from becoming actions?

How to cope with extremists who deliberately try to upset traders? I'm not a baker or B&B owner, but if I would be, say, EITHER a strong Muslim OR a committed Gay I would use my business head in all situations (I hope). I would carry out wedding cake contracts, or offer service to any couples in my B&B, etc.... but in the case of anybody seeking a nasty upsetting job like wanting to invite gay swingers to a B&B room (overcrowding?) or insisting upon a message against LGBT folks (incitement/hate messages?) I would refuse service and go to court.... unreasonable demands.

There are a myriad of examples of this, if you are not blind to them!

Where? !! What?
All I ever read about (here) is religious B&B owners who turn away gay couples from B&Bs or wedding receptions.

Circa 2005 I had to go to Portsmouth (UK) to deliver training courses. A B&B was booked for me there during a very busy tourist week, so my support staff knew to book a bed for me early on. I arrived at the place at about 7.30pm on my motorcycle and the B&B owner tried to refuse me service because she didn't like nasty gangster motorcyclists. I would probably rob her, she thought. I produced my driver, company, trainer, security, licences and offered my guvnor's phone number and all. No good! She wanted me gone (and nowhere else to go, at night and 150 miles from home). I then told her that if she ordered me out once more that I would have to go but that I would see her across a courtroom for all company and personal costs, and more, and that I would write all about it in my monthly column in our Pro Security Mag. She gave it up and actually her breakfast was very nice.

A very posh hotel in Wellingborough (UK) tried to turn me away one night. My national security company had booked a room for me and had already prepared all payments. I had lots of cash but no cred/debit cards with me, so the hotel decided to refuse me entry. The manager said that I might use extra services and then abscond. I showed my money....no good! I offered to puts funds over the reception counter to collect back next morning....no good. Wellingborough is about 180 miles from home...late at night. I gave her the same ultimatum...... Give me service or I'll see you in court plus whatever my company decides to do.......... the manager backed down.

Luckily. Have you ever been refused service? I have!

And you really do not understand Jesus at all, do you? I just love it when people who obviously know nothing about the whole of scripture try to tell believers what it means. What a joke you make of God's word!

You think so?
Do you think that there is only one type of believer? Did you know that there are many hundreds of creeds and churches?
Do you think that only your interpretation of Jesus is correct?
I don't try to tell folks anything........, but I do write down exactly what I can read.......
Look...... Mossrose, here or in any other thread, show me something that I have written about Baptist or Jesus, challenge me, and then see where such debate goes. You won't find me an easy pushover in connection with that. You won't.

[eider]

If Paul was alone in opposing homosexual relationships among believers, it would indeed be no more than Paul's opinion: he is not the only Biblical author to oppose such relationships.

Any sources or examples, please?
I would be interested to read those.......... especially if Jesus or the Baptist referred to them.

[eider]

Even Jesus acknowledged that people would have been justified in rejecting his own witness, had no corroboration (in the form of demonstrations of power) been available.

What exactly do you mean by that?
What did Jesus acknowledge?

[eider]

Paul himself.
2 Cor 13
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

That's Mosaib Law, isn't it?
Paul did cling to the old laws, despite what Jesus said or did.

[eider]

Homophobe.

(I had written...'I am unwilling to joyfully embrace the LGBT lifestyle...)

I am unwilling to do many things........ like joyfully embrace Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism....... but that doesn't mean that I cannot acknowledge such followers and live among them.
I am unwilling to joyfully eat celery.

[eider]

Given the loooooong history of Christians charging others for heresy, up to and including burning them at the stake, that seems to be extremely hypocritical.

And before you say that's all in the past, this site has plenty of policies around what people can say about Christianity, enforced by you. I have no doubt that in your mind it's totally justified when you do it. I'm sure LGBT people think the same when they do it.

Well said.
There are still Christian communities that support hanging Gays, or bringing back old testament punishments.