The happiest countries are liberal countries

[Starlight]

There are basic biblical principles on which we Christians agree, central to them is the Golden Rule -- that's pretty standard as a moral compass.

The Golden Rule is a universal moral principle. It's found in other societies long before Christianity, and in societies where Christianity had no influence.

It's not surprising that Christianity would include among its moral principles, universal principles. But those universal principles don't come from Christianity. Rather, to the extent that Christian morality is good, it's good because it adopted external secular universal moral principles such as the golden rule. Unfortunately Christianity didn't just stop with the universal secular moral principles, it added in a whole bunch of other garbage too, which took liberal Christians in the US centuries to get rid of due to their inconsistencies with the underlying universal secular principles such as the golden rule.

[seer]

Given the top ten happiest countries are all among the least religious countries in the world, it does seem atheism makes for a less crime-prone, and more peaceable society.

I did point out in a recent thread in apologetics that empirical cross-cultural research shows that the most universal moral code is that held by liberals in Western societies... i.e. typical of the countries listed in the top-10 happiest in the OP. You never responded to that thread in apologetics.

You are speaking of countries washed in Christian ethics for centuries. How about secular countries like China or North Korea?

Role of Christianity in civilization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_o...n_civilization

Why would something universal need a singular leader? Leaders are for subjective things, where the leader says it and it is so. That is why you have religious leaders, to subjectively teach their own version of religion.

For the sake of completeness of answer, I would say that historically the most famous historical ethical philosophers in the Western tradition were probably Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Epicurius, Marcus Aurelius, Hume, Kant, Bentham, and John Stuart Mill, but that's a somewhat arbitrary list and your mileage may vary (e.g. here is someone else's list based on some sort of polling, but the only one in their top 9 who isn't also in my list is Hobbs). Kant's the only one in that list, I think, who could be said to be absolutely and definitely religious (and Christian). The rest were generally regarded by the people around them as being pretty strongly against the religion of their day and called 'atheists' by those around them, even if some of them held some sort of spiritual beliefs.

Who the hell thinks Hume or Mill were great moral leaders? And Aristotle was a monotheist.

Perhaps the two most famous ethical philosophers in the last 30 years are Peter Singer and John Rawls, both atheists, though Rawls was initially a Christian.

Right Peter Singer who thinks infanticide and having sex with animals is OK. Read his "Heavy Petting." That is a moral hero of yours?

[Starlight]

You are speaking of countries washed in Christian ethics for centuries.

Much of the world has been washed in Christian ethics for centuries. But much of the world didn't make it to the top-10 happiest list, just the most post-Christian countries.

A atheist friend of mine once tried to convince me that Christianity is a good step on the way toward peak morality. We were discussing an article about Africa and how the African tribespeople didn't transition well directly from their tribal religions to atheism, but that what did work quite well was transitioning them from their tribal religions to Christianity, and then later to atheism. My atheist friend suggested that perhaps Christianity has some properties which make it quite good as a transition stage, and just as people can't take a step that is too big for them, they need to change their society in smaller ways, and so Christianity despite being morally inferior to atheism, can serve as a useful stepping stone.

Perhaps my friend was right. Perhaps countries like China that haven't gone through the stepping stone of Christianity, suffer because of that, and their 'atheism' is tainted by leftovers from their previous religious ideas which haven't been properly removed and are muddying the waters, while the European post-Christian countries had many centuries for Christianity to get rid of all the pagan and polytheistic ideas they had, so have approached atheism from a cleaner slate, and though the ideas in Christianity are sub-optimal, they can be a stepping stone to the more enlightened morality of the post-Christian nations.

Who the hell thinks Hume or Mill were great moral leaders?

It was a list of the most famous ethical philosophers. Mill was a particularly influential writer about morality, promoting utilitarianism in politics which became foundational across Western societies, as well as promoting women's equality. Hume, by contrast, I think was more just famous among the philosophy community than effective at changing politics.

Right Peter Singer who thinks infanticide and having sex with animals is OK... That is a moral hero of yours?

I need not agree with him on every issue to note that he's been one of the most influential philosophers of recent times. It was a list of the most famous people, not a list of my heroes - I have not read anything at all written by about half the people I listed. With regard to Singer, I've read half of one of his books, and do intend to read more.

The common practice of identifying "morality" with "altruism" owes much to Singer, as do vegetarian, vegan, and animal rights movements.

You might admire Singer for his emphasis on helping the 3rd world, his encouragement of people to give as much money as possible to charity, and on carefully measuring the effectiveness of charities to make sure that money is spent to help people in the most efficient way possible to ensure the maximum number of people are helped as much as possible.

[seer]

Much of the world has been washed in Christian ethics for centuries. But much of the world didn't make it to the top-10 happiest list, just the most post-Christian countries.

A atheist friend of mine once tried to convince me that Christianity is a good step on the way toward peak morality. We were discussing an article about Africa and how the African tribespeople didn't transition well directly from their tribal religions to atheism, but that what did work quite well was transitioning them from their tribal religions to Christianity, and then later to atheism. My atheist friend suggested that perhaps Christianity has some properties which make it quite good as a transition stage, and just as people can't take a step that is too big for them, they need to change their society in smaller ways, and so Christianity despite being morally inferior to atheism, can serve as a useful stepping stone.

Perhaps my friend was right. Perhaps countries like China that haven't gone through the stepping stone of Christianity, suffer because of that, and their 'atheism' is tainted by leftovers from their previous religious ideas which haven't been properly removed and are muddying the waters, while the European post-Christian countries had many centuries for Christianity to get rid of all the pagan and polytheistic ideas they had, so have approached atheism from a cleaner slate, and though the ideas in Christianity are sub-optimal, they can be a stepping stone to the more enlightened morality of the post-Christian nations.

So how do you know what the West would be like with out the stepping stone of Christianity? And if you read my link Christianity was much more than a stepping stone - it under-girds most of our best, most useful institutions. And what do you mean that it is morally inferior to atheism? There are no moral guide lines in atheism. Atheism has nothing to say about ethics - nada, zero...

[Ronson]

... so Christianity despite being morally inferior to atheism, can serve as a useful stepping stone.

Before bothering to list the multitude of Christian charities that feed, clothe and house the hungry and the homeless, would you mind showing me any examples of the superior atheist morality where they do the same? Or even comes close?

[Cow Poke]

Before bothering to list the multitude of Christian charities that feed, clothe and house the hungry and the homeless, would you mind showing me any examples of the superior atheist morality where they do the same? Or even comes close?

And hospitals, and virtually every college and university in the forming of America...

[kccd]

Can't speak about Denmark but had some relatives return from Tokyo in January last year who said it was easy to spend the equivalent of $30 to $40 for a meal at McDonald's there and only a couple of them served "American" food.

The first time I was in Japan I was just out of school and watching my pennies. The exchange rate was also really bad so food was really expensive, especially in Tokyo. We frequently went to Pizza Hut for lunch because they had all you can eat pizza (mostly ham and pineapple) and salad (shredded lettuce), but it was affordable. We also went to the many convenience shops for affordable bento boxes, yogurt, chips and drinks.

I have been to McDonalds in many countries, mainly because it is interesting to see the sandwich variants they sell to match local tastes. I don't recall it being especially expensive, although I think in France the wine they sell is much cheaper than Coke.

Why would you want to eat "American" food while travelling abroad? Why bother going?

[Mountain Man]

Given the top ten happiest countries are all among the least religious countries in the world, it does seem atheism makes for a less crime-prone, and more peaceable society.

Again, what's the cause, and what's the effect? Do you know? And how do you know?

[kccd]

Before bothering to list the multitude of Christian charities that feed, clothe and house the hungry and the homeless, would you mind showing me any examples of the superior atheist morality where they do the same? Or even comes close?

A doctor at my church did some volunteer work when he was young in southeast Asia. He worked with a variety of people who were there with different groups. He was horrified to find that certain doctors attached Christian symbols and prayers to patient care, in some cases implying that the care was linked to acceptance of the religion. I hope his experience was an outlier, but he said this problem seemed to be worse with the more conservative Christian sects.

[kccd]

And hospitals, and virtually every college and university in the forming of America...

Yes many of the oldest universities began as seminaries or with close ties to specific churches, however, many of those ties have dissolved.

As for hospitals, I do not think hospitals should be run by churches. Seems to me that Catholic hospitals in particular impose a code on their medical staff that is at odds with the Hippocratic Oath and best medical practices as defined by the AMA.

[kccd]

So how do you know what the West would be like with out the stepping stone of Christianity? And if you read my link Christianity was much more than a stepping stone - it under-girds most of our best, most useful institutions. And what do you mean that it is morally inferior to atheism? There are no moral guide lines in atheism. Atheism has nothing to say about ethics - nada, zero...

Seems to me that it was the Enlightenment that had greater influence on our founding fathers. This was a movement tied to the Scientific Revolution which valued observation and experimentation over knowledge gained from studying Aristotle or the Bible.

[seer]

Christianity has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society. Throughout its long history, the Church has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care; an inspiration for art, culture and philosophy; and an influential player in politics and religion. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes towards vice and virtue in diverse fields. Festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked as public holidays; the Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and the calendar itself is measured from the date of Jesus's birth.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.^[1] During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The medieval cathedrals remain among the most iconic architectural feats produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.^[2] The university is generally regarded^[3][4] as an institution that has its origin in the Medieval Christian setting, born from Cathedral schools.^[5] The Reformation brought an end to religious unity in the West, but the Renaissance masterpieces produced by Catholic artists like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and Raphael remain among the most celebrated works of art ever produced. Similarly, Christian sacred music by composers like Pachelbel, Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Liszt, and Verdi is among the most admired classical music in the Western canon.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists. The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the most important sources of modern notions of human rights and the welfare commonly provided by governments in the West. Long-held Christian teachings on sexuality, marriage, and family life have also been influential and controversial in recent times. Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice,^[6] infanticide and polygamy.^[7]:309 Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning marital infidelity, divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), and abortion.^[8]:104 While official Church teaching^[9]:61 considers women and men to be complementary (equal and different), some modern "advocates of ordination of women and other feminists" argue that teachings attributed to St. Paul and those of the Fathers of the Church and Scholastic theologians advanced the notion of a divinely ordained female inferiority.^[10] Nevertheless, women have played prominent roles in Western history through and as part of the church, particularly in education and healthcare, but also as influential theologians and mystics.

Christians have made a myriad contributions to human progress in a broad and diverse range of fields, both historically and in modern times, including the science and technology,^{[11][12][13][14][15]}medicine,^[16]fine arts and architecture,^[17][18][19] politics, literatures,^[19]Music,^[19]philanthropy, philosophy,^{[20][21][22]:15}ethics,^[23]theatre and business.^{[24][25][18][26]} According to 100 Years of Nobel Prizes a review of Nobel prizes award between 1901 and 2000 reveals that (65.4%) of Nobel Prizes Laureates, have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference.^[27]Eastern Christians (particularly Nestorian Christians) have also contributed to the Arab Islamic Civilization during the Ummayad and the Abbasid periods by translating works of Greek philosophers to Syriac and afterwards to Arabic.^[28][29][30]They also excelled in philosophy, science, theology and medicine.^[31][32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_o...n_civilization

[kccd]

So how do you know what the West would be like with out the stepping stone of Christianity? And if you read my link Christianity was much more than a stepping stone - it under-girds most of our best, most useful institutions. And what do you mean that it is morally inferior to atheism? There are no moral guide lines in atheism. Atheism has nothing to say about ethics - nada, zero...

How solid is a moral guide line if it comes from a list in a book, or a pastor's interpretation?
I cannot believe that people don't know right from wrong unless they are told by someone else who claims authority.

[seer]

Seems to me that it was the Enlightenment that had greater influence on our founding fathers. This was a movement tied to the Scientific Revolution which valued observation and experimentation over knowledge gained from studying Aristotle or the Bible.

Nonsense, John Locke has the most influence and he grounded rights in the God of the Bible. Never mind that most of the Founders were Christian. Ans Science tells us nothing about human rights.

[seer]

How solid is a moral guide line if it comes from a list in a book, or a pastor's interpretation?
I cannot believe that people don't know right from wrong unless they are told by someone else who claims authority.

How is there a solid moral guide in your moral opinion?