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The happiest countries are liberal countries

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    Yes, I guess being doped up can make you happy. But does that really count?
    This guy is happy, too (the village idiot).

    Village Idiot.jpg

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
      The US is a collection of states that vary widely in government and economy. I would be curious to see the happiness levels of Americans living in LIBERAL California or LIBERAL New York right now. In my flyover CONSERVATIVE state, people seem quite happy ... and free.
      I googled for a similar US based survey, as I thought I recalled seeing on in the past (in the one I remember, blue states did better than red states btw), but couldn't find one.

      The closest I could find was this one, which uses a much more complex metric which looks at "emotional and physical well-being, work environment and community environment", which they, perhaps questionably, label "happiness".

      The article didn't look at whether they were blue or red states, so I did a quick little graph of it from their data, combined with (somewhat arbitrary) internet lists of blue and red states:

      Happiness US states.JPG
      There's quite a big difference there, with the Blue states being significantly "happier" (in the metric, #1 = most happy state, #50 = least happy state, so lower on the graph above is happier).

      At any rate, I wouldn't put much stock in a UN-sponsored report.
      Gallup was the polling agency doing the polls. The UN is just funding the people who write reports using that data.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #33
        Some of the happiest kids I've ever seen were little Haitian kids in their undies playing in the poop ditch in slum of Cap Haitian, splashing in the muck and throwing poop at each other.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Yes, I guess being doped up can make you happy. But does that really count?
          The polling question asked was not about how happy they felt, which would certainly be easy to change with drugs, it was about how satisfied with their lives they were.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            The polling question asked was not about how happy they felt, which would certainly be easy to change with drugs, it was about how satisfied with their lives they were.
            Nice to know that religious people are happier than the non-religious and more involved in the community - a win win all around....

            https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...60#post1249660
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              I googled for a similar US based survey, as I thought I recalled seeing on in the past (in the one I remember, blue states did better than red states btw), but couldn't find one.

              The closest I could find was this one, which uses a much more complex metric which looks at "emotional and physical well-being, work environment and community environment", which they, perhaps questionably, label "happiness".

              The article didn't look at whether they were blue or red states, so I did a quick little graph of it from their data, combined with (somewhat arbitrary) internet lists of blue and red states:

              Happiness US states.JPG
              There's quite a big difference there, with the Blue states being significantly "happier" (in the metric, #1 = most happy state, #50 = least happy state, so lower on the graph above is happier).

              Gallup was the polling agency doing the polls. The UN is just funding the people who write reports using that data.
              That is one weird graph you got there.

              But I'm having a hard time buying those results - especially for 2020. I'm from California and have lots of friends and family there. With one exception, everyone is absolutely miserable there right now - and some are in the process of moving out. LIBERAL Newsom devastated its economy and is poised to be recalled.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by kccd View Post

                So if you are living rightly (according to your criteria), then it is OK if you are unhappy or even miserable?

                What is wrong with aiming to have a happy life?

                HL Mencken said “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”
                I never said there's anything wrong with being happy, I said that it's not the be all and end all of human existence. I also never said that right living leads to miserableness, so that's a lovely straw man you constructed. What I did say is that happiness does not necessarily imply right living, so the fact that irreligious people might report being happier than religious people doesn't tell us anything meaningful. I suppose we could get into a discourse about the difference between happiness (which is fleeting) and joy (which is consistent and eternal), but I've found that most non-Christians are not well-equipped for theological debate.
                Last edited by Mountain Man; 03-20-2021, 03:47 PM.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Nice to know that religious people are happier than the non-religious and more involved in the community - a win win all around....
                  It does seem to be mildly beneficial for the individuals involved - probably it's a good way of making friends and socializing. When I was religious it was a good supply of friends for me, and I found making friends much harder after I left religion.

                  Religion itself probably has a negative effect on the happiness of those not participating in that religion. e.g. LGBT people who were not religious were probably less happy due to others in their society being highly religious and being very critical of LGBT people's existence and rights as a result of that religion. So while religion might be a source of happiness to its adherents it can obviously be a source of harm and unhappiness for the non-adherence.

                  Overall, the happiest countries in the world (e.g. OP list) are all some of the most non-religious countries, and if you look at a list of 'most religious countries', it is a list of 3rd world countries. Religion's biggest effect in terms of happiness appears to be a negative effect.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Some of the happiest kids I've ever seen were little Haitian kids in their undies playing in the poop ditch in slum of Cap Haitian, splashing in the muck and throwing poop at each other.
                    There's a variety of ways of measuring happiness. One way is to look at how often positive emotions are experienced. The Haitian kids would doubtless do pretty well on that metric.

                    The OP survey metric is a bit different. It asks people to imagine the worst possible life, and have that as the zero, and then to imagine the best possible life and have that as 10, and then to rank their own life on that scale. This is sometimes called a 'life-satisfaction' measure. Also it's a survey of adults not kids. Most adults are probably not going to regard living in a slum and poop throwing for fun as the best possible life.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      I never said there's anything wrong with being happy, I said that it's not the be all and end all of human existence. I also never said that right living leads to miserableness, so that's a lovely straw man you constructed. What I did say is that happiness does not necessarily imply right living, so the fact that irreligious people might report being happier than religious people doesn't tell us anything meaningful. I suppose we could get into a discourse about the difference between happiness (which is fleeting) and joy (which is consistent and eternal), but I've found that most non-Christians are not well-equipped for theological debate.
                      When I was a teenager and irreligious, a friend asked me: "Who would you rather find following you in a dark alley? A group of atheists or a group of Christians?" I didn't even hesitate.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                        You can reject it if you like. However, I regularly see threads here where conservative posters make claims that liberal policies will destroy society.

                        Given that people report being happiest in the most liberal countries, claims that liberal policies will wreck society are clearly false.

                        Conservative policies might be religiously good according to your religious metrics, but in terms of making the people in society happy, they are bad.
                        Again, this assumes that happiness is the be all and end all of human existence, and that if you are able to make someone happy, then you have done right. That's a poor metric, because there are a lot of things that might make someone happy but are actually immoral.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          There's a variety of ways of measuring happiness. One way is to look at how often positive emotions are experienced. The Haitian kids would doubtless do pretty well on that metric.
                          Primarily - and I mean this in the proper sense - because of ignorance.

                          The OP survey metric is a bit different. It asks people to imagine the worst possible life, and have that as the zero, and then to imagine the best possible life and have that as 10, and then to rank their own life on that scale. This is sometimes called a 'life-satisfaction' measure. Also it's a survey of adults not kids. Most adults are probably not going to regard living in a slum and poop throwing for fun as the best possible life.
                          Naw, but I bet they (the adults) have fond memories of "our younger days", and they weren't rushing out to stop the kids.

                          But, yeah, that's an extreme example. The adults all gather down at the local bar (used to be a very luxurious tourist hotel before AIDS) to watch a 9" black and white TV showing reruns of I Love Lucy dubbed into French, with the power going out for 30-45 minutes every hour or so.

                          But, again, I get what you're saying. Basically, it's all relative, though.

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            I see the UN World Happiness Report 2021 has just been released. It is based on survey data from around the world, asking people to rank how satisfied they are with their lives on a 0-10 scale, and averaging those results per country.

                            This study has been conducted for a number of years now, and the results typically don't change much year-on-year. Finland has been the happiest country in the world 4 years running.

                            The top-10 happiest nations in the 2021 report are:

                            1. Finland (7.842)
                            2. Denmark (7.620)
                            3. Switzerland (7.571)
                            4. Iceland (7.554)
                            5. Netherlands (7.464)
                            6. Norway (7.392)
                            7. Sweden (7.363)
                            8. Luxembourg (7.324)
                            9. New Zealand (7.277)
                            10. Austria (7.268)

                            It's interesting to me what type of countries are on that list. They're all developed countries, all Western countries, and all liberal / left-wing countries.
                            I question how useful a metric of happiness is, but I can't can't help but notice something else about the types of countries. Except for New Zealand, they're also all countries with an overwhelmingly Caucasian population. And even New Zealand has a predominately Caucasian population, with non-Caucasians (Maori and Asians) still having a fairly light skin tone.

                            If we're going to draw conclusions from this, it would seem to me that one can just as justifiably conclude that the greatest happiness is found in countries with people who overwhelmingly have light skin tones.

                            But what the list of happiest countries isn't is a list of conservative countries. Nor are they religious countries - the countries in this list are among the highest in the world for their rates of atheism and religious non-adherence.
                            I believe North Korea and China have higher rates of atheism and religious non-adherence than any country you listed there.
                            Last edited by Terraceth; 03-20-2021, 04:31 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                              When I was a teenager and irreligious, a friend asked me: "Who would you rather find following you in a dark alley? A group of atheists or a group of Christians?" I didn't even hesitate.
                              My answer in my country would be the opposite.

                              Dangerous criminals in my country are largely poor people of color. And that demographic skews very religious. Atheists are far more likely to be well-off white people, and that's not the demographic here that's going to hurt you in a dark alley.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                                I question how useful a metric of happiness is, but I can't can't help but notice something else about the types of countries. Except for New Zealand, they're also all countries with an overwhelmingly Caucasian population. And even New Zealand has a predominately Caucasian population, with non-Caucasians (Maori and Asians) still having a fairly light skin tone.

                                If we're going to draw conclusions from this, it would seem to me that one can just as justifiably conclude that the greatest happiness is found in countries with people who overwhelmingly have light skin tones.
                                It's kinda obvious to all that Western countries are doing better than other countries across pretty much all metrics, and that Western countries are by and large European countries.

                                However, there are plenty of European countries in Eastern Europe that have not done particularly great, nor are they particularly happy.

                                One other variable to consider is climate. It's highly correlated with skin color because the skin color is an evolutionary adaption to the climate. Nine of those top-10 countries are in a similar climate zone in Europe, and New Zealand on the other side of the world from them is in a similar climate zone to them but in the southern hemisphere.

                                It thus becomes quite difficult to disentangle the effects of race, culture, climate, and history.

                                I believe North Korea and China have higher rates of atheism and religious non-adherence than any country you listed there.
                                In those countries (lack of) religious practices were compulsory, rather than voluntary, so they're not really comparable. Arguably North Korea is religious - they worship the glorious leader. And I was actually quite surprised how high China is now up the happiness index.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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