Have any of you gotten a vaccine?

[oxmixmudd]

You didn't answer my question: If you really didn't mean the enforced vaccination of the population, then what did you mean?

I meant it should be mandated at whatever level is appropriate per US law and medical ethics. The entire discussion was hypothetical in terms of what should be done. There are in fact real standards for what constitutes an ethical vaccination mandate and how it should be enforced up to and including potential criminality.

As far as I know those discussions have not been had wrt this disease. They certainly have been had wrt polio and small pox and it was determined to be ethical to mandate those vaccination programs. In fact in 1792 the state of Virginia enacted a penalty of $1500 ( about $43,000 in today's dollars)and 6 months in jail for anyone willfully spreading smallpox

And my guess is that is where this will come down as well. We probably won't be rounding up people that refuse to be vaccinated, but they may well pay more for insurance or be subject to lawsuits and financially culpable for actions that negligently infect others. They may also find employers won't hire them as they present an immediate danger to others ( the vaccines are not 100% effective). And most people faced with less income or the possibility of lawsuits will decide to get the vaccine, which is what is needed. The point after all is not to punish people, but to limit the spread of a deadly disease.



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[Juvenal]

You do seem to be a master of the absurd.

I appreciate your passion and frustration. Let me suggest it might be better to channel them into convincing others to participate in vaccination.

[oxmixmudd]

I appreciate your passion and frustration. Let me suggest it might be better to channel them into convincing others to participate in vaccination.

Thanks. Not a bad suggestion at all

[Roy]

Like I said earlier, it comes from a number of different sources. The take away here is that the China flu is almost certainly not as deadly as fearmongers like you have been claiming.

No, the take away here is that you are posting unsubstantiated garbage and downplaying the dangers of catching COVID-19.

[NorrinRadd]

Dr. Marty Makary recently averred that the CFR of Covid19 is about the same as seasonal flu, but I am unable to locate that video online.

Herein he pegs the IFR at about 0.23%. I'm not sure how that compares to flu. That is not at all the main topic of the article, but an interesting point.

[Mountain Man]

I meant it should be mandated at whatever level is appropriate per US law and medical ethics. The entire discussion was hypothetical in terms of what should be done. There are in fact real standards for what constitutes an ethical vaccination mandate and how it should be enforced up to and including potential criminality.

As far as I know those discussions have not been had wrt this disease. They certainly have been had wrt polio and small pox and it was determined to be ethical to mandate those vaccination programs. In fact in 1792 the state of Virginia enacted a penalty of $1500 ( about $43,000 in today's dollars)and 6 months in jail for anyone willfully spreading smallpox

And my guess is that is where this will come down as well. We probably won't be rounding up people that refuse to be vaccinated, but they may well pay more for insurance or be subject to lawsuits and financially culpable for actions that negligently infect others. They may also find employers won't hire them as they present an immediate danger to others ( the vaccines are not 100% effective). And most people faced with less income or the possibility of lawsuits will decide to get the vaccine, which is what is needed. The point after all is not to punish people, but to limit the spread of a deadly disease..

So you liken sensibly choosing not to receive an experimental vaccine with "willfully spreading" the China flu, and "negligently [infecting] others"?



And I have to ask, again, if this is really your belief, do you plan to mask, socially distance, self-quarantine yourself, receive every known vaccine, and follow every government edict and CDC recommendation for the rest of your life on the off chance that you could be harboring a deadly disease without knowing it? After all, if it has the potential to save even one life, then it's worth it, right?

[oxmixmudd]

So you liken sensibly choosing not to receive an experimental vaccine with "willfully spreading" the [covid19], and "negligently [infecting] others"?

In the US alone there have been over 56 million people vaccinated, with adverse reactions equal to or less than those typical of any vaccine - 1 in 2 to 5 million people. The virus, OTOH, has killed over 1% of the people infected in the US, nearly 600,000 people. So there is litersally nothing sensible about refusing to get the vaccine.

And I have to ask, again, if this is really your belief, do you plan to mask, socially distance, self-quarantine yourself, receive every known vaccine, and follow every government edict and CDC recommendation for the rest of your life on the off chance that you could be harboring a deadly disease without knowing it? After all, if it has the potential to save even one life, then it's worth it, right?

I will do what is warranted by the disease itself. These are pathogens and that behave according to natural law with out regard for human ideologies, ignorance, or politics. Without the actions taken thus far, we would be looking at millions of deaths, as many as 10% of us would have lost our oldest generation before their time, and as many as 1% of us would have lost parents or other loved ones nowhere near the end of their normal lives. Our hospital would have been completely overwhelmed, our health workers retired or sick with exhaustion and unable to help anyone. Our healthcare system crippled maybe for at least a year, maybe more.

These are the simple facts, facts you refuse to believe for reasons that ultimately have their basis in ignorance coupled with a perverse politically driven paranoia, but the facts nonetheless.

[NorrinRadd]

Diverting briefly from specific focus on vaccines, here Dr. Makary disputes the recent doom-and-gloom 4th-wave pandemic predictions of Dr. Osterholm.

[NorrinRadd]

Question: Is there a site that gives a concise, understandable, and unbiased summary and comparison/contrast of the currently available Covid vaccines?

[oxmixmudd]

Dr. Marty Makary recently averred that the CFR of Covid19 is about the same as seasonal flu, but I am unable to locate that video online.

Herein he pegs the IFR at about 0.23%. I'm not sure how that compares to flu. That is not at all the main topic of the article, but an interesting point.

Consider the actual facts NorrinRadd. The Confirmed Fatality Rate is the ratio of confirmed deaths to confirmed cases. Right now according to the Johns Hopkins University and Medical center web site, there have been 30,785,942 confirmed cases of Covid 19, and 555,619 confirmed deaths by covid 19. That is cumulative CFR of 1.8%. Any other number is at best speculation, but more likely a combinations of ignorance and falsehood.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/

this site lists it as 2.1%

https://www.news-medical.net/health/...ate-(CFR).aspx

These rates vary a good bit by age, but hit double digits for those in the 70's and older.

If we look at the CFR over time, we can see that advances in care and more extensive testing have significantly reduced that number over time, from values as high as 7 or 8%.

How does that compare to the flu

The CFR for the normal flu this year is 1.8/100,000 or .0018%, or nearly exactly 1/1000 that of Covid-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm

But that is an artificially low value due to the positive effect of our covid-19 mitigation efforts, The normal estimate for the flu mortality is %0.1, or about 1/20th that of Covid 19 (though my reference lists covid 19 CFR as 3.1%, or 30X more deadly)

https://www.goodrx.com/blog/flu-vs-c...n%20the%20flu.

This site gives historical values that show values range from slightly <0.1% to as much as %0.17 or so:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html


This is reality. And that is why, when coupled with adverse reactions to the vaccine of just .0005% worst case, we need to all get vaccinated so we can move on.

[Mountain Man]

In the US alone there have been over 56 million people vaccinated, with adverse reactions equal to or less than those typical of any vaccine - 1 in 2 to 5 million people. The virus, OTOH, has killed over 1% of the people infected in the US, nearly 600,000 people. So there is litersally nothing sensible about refusing to get the vaccine.




I will do what is warranted by the disease itself. These are pathogens and that behave according to natural law with out regard for human ideologies, ignorance, or politics. Without the actions taken thus far, we would be looking at millions of deaths, as many as 10% of us would have lost our oldest generation before their time, and as many as 1% of us would have lost parents or other loved ones nowhere near the end of their normal lives. Our hospital would have been completely overwhelmed, our health workers retired or sick with exhaustion and unable to help anyone. Our healthcare system crippled maybe for at least a year, maybe more.

These are the simple facts, facts you refuse to believe for reasons that ultimately have their basis in ignorance coupled with a perverse politically driven paranoia, but the facts nonetheless.

No, it is speculative fearmongering.

[oxmixmudd]

Question: Is there a site that gives a concise, understandable, and unbiased summary and comparison/contrast of the currently available Covid vaccines?

here are 3:

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/co...ine-comparison

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/02/...hnson-johnson/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavir...aring-vaccines

[kccd]

I meant it should be mandated at whatever level is appropriate per US law and medical ethics. The entire discussion was hypothetical in terms of what should be done. There are in fact real standards for what constitutes an ethical vaccination mandate and how it should be enforced up to and including potential criminality.

As far as I know those discussions have not been had wrt this disease. They certainly have been had wrt polio and small pox and it was determined to be ethical to mandate those vaccination programs. In fact in 1792 the state of Virginia enacted a penalty of $1500 ( about $43,000 in today's dollars)and 6 months in jail for anyone willfully spreading smallpox

And my guess is that is where this will come down as well. We probably won't be rounding up people that refuse to be vaccinated, but they may well pay more for insurance or be subject to lawsuits and financially culpable for actions that negligently infect others. They may also find employers won't hire them as they present an immediate danger to others ( the vaccines are not 100% effective). And most people faced with less income or the possibility of lawsuits will decide to get the vaccine, which is what is needed. The point after all is not to punish people, but to limit the spread of a deadly disease.



.

It makes sense to make the unvaccinated pay more for insurance. Colleges are mandating that students be vaccinated, so businesses will likely do that as well.

[oxmixmudd]

No, it is speculative fearmongering.

No - those are the numbers and the derived ratios. The number infected as identified by testing, the number that died as identified by testing and/or the attending physician, the number of people vaccinated and the number of reported adverse events. Those are the FACTS, the data, the numbers and their derived ratios. Denial can't change that reality, no matter how much you want it to.

[Mountain Man]

The number infected as identified by testing, the number that died as identified by testing and/or the attending physician...

It's been pointed out previously how inaccurate those numbers actually are for a variety of reasons.

...the number of people vaccinated and the number of reported adverse events.

"Reported" is the key word. We know that not everybody who suffers negative severe side effects from the China flu vaccine is necessarily reported, and based on data in VAERS, while we don't have comprehensive numbers, there is good reason to believe that the side effects are common and more serious than from other vaccines.

A recent report in The New York Times looked at the issues that have followed the vaccine rollout, including the lack of follow-up in documenting side effects after COVID-19 vaccines.

"For now, federal regulators are counting on a patchwork of existing programs that they acknowledge are inadequate because of small sample size, missing critical data or other problems," reporter Sheila Kaplan wrote.

Nationally, there have been very few reports on possible side effects and where to report them. Here in Utah, guiding people to the right resources post vaccine has not been a priority. Utah’s coronavirus website lists a few possible side effects, but does not provide links or a guide for vaccine recipients on where or how to report in the event they experience side effects.

With so many people getting the same vaccines all at once, most people are hearing post vaccine experiences varying from mild, to terrifying. For a growing number here in Utah and across the country, the COVID-19 vaccine taken to save a life put them dangerously close to losing their own.

https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/co...here-to-report

From mild headaches to seizure activity that required hospitalization, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have logged more than 1,000 reports of side effects involving those receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.

The CDC keeps track of these incidents through VAERS, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. In the first 10 days of the COVID-19 vaccine rollout, 1,156 reports were submitted, or 0.6% of the approximately 2.1 million doses administered.

But COVID-19 vaccines account for 68% of all reported adverse events for all vaccine types during the same time period -- everything from flu shots to measles and tetanus vaccinations.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/he...2-f8f943933518