Have any of you gotten a vaccine?

[oxmixmudd]

It's been pointed out previously how inaccurate those numbers actually are for a variety of reasons.

No, misinformation from non-scientific sources that makes unsubstantiated claims about anecdotal evidence has been posted.

And it has also been countered with information with real research done by real scientists that shows those claims are rubbish. From the difference between the claimed inaccuracy and the orders of magnitude required to make any real difference to research on the excess deaths that have been recorded and the fact the indication is that if anything deaths from COVID have been undercounted. Real research you ignore because of unsubstantiated paranoia that tells you real doctors and real nurses, real researchers are all involved in some conspiracy to make covid look worse than it really is. I can't fix that in you MM, but I can post the real numbers and the real research and I can appeal to the fact that real doctors and real nurses are not - en masse - going to go along with such a conspiracy.

"Reported" is the key word. We know that not everybody who suffers negative severe side effects from the [covid 19] vaccine is necessarily reported, and based on data in VAERS, while we don't have comprehensive numbers, there is good reason to believe that the side effects are common and more serious than from other vaccines.

A recent report in The New York Times looked at the issues that have followed the vaccine rollout, including the lack of follow-up in documenting side effects after COVID-19 vaccines.

"For now, federal regulators are counting on a patchwork of existing programs that they acknowledge are inadequate because of small sample size, missing critical data or other problems," reporter Sheila Kaplan wrote.

Nationally, there have been very few reports on possible side effects and where to report them. Here in Utah, guiding people to the right resources post vaccine has not been a priority. Utah’s coronavirus website lists a few possible side effects, but does not provide links or a guide for vaccine recipients on where or how to report in the event they experience side effects.

With so many people getting the same vaccines all at once, most people are hearing post vaccine experiences varying from mild, to terrifying. For a growing number here in Utah and across the country, the COVID-19 vaccine taken to save a life put them dangerously close to losing their own.

https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/co...here-to-report

From mild headaches to seizure activity that required hospitalization, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have logged more than 1,000 reports of side effects involving those receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.

The CDC keeps track of these incidents through VAERS, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. In the first 10 days of the COVID-19 vaccine rollout, 1,156 reports were submitted, or 0.6% of the approximately 2.1 million doses administered.

But COVID-19 vaccines account for 68% of all reported adverse events for all vaccine types during the same time period -- everything from flu shots to measles and tetanus vaccinations.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/he...2-f8f943933518

As I said, the rate for anaphylaxis is about 5 in a million, there have been some 2579 reports of deaths close to the time of vaccination - that is out of 145 million doses (.0017%). Given people die of natural causes every day and not related to having just gotten any vaccne, statistically this is not a number that indicates a significant causal relationship to the vaccine itself. Part of investigating such reports is determining if the cause of death is actually related to the vaccine dose. To this date, there has been no statistically significant shift in deaths that can be correlated to vaccine administration.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

And that is all one can do MM. Look at the data, look for potential causality. Running in fear over a potential 1 in 100,000 event that maybe just maybe is related to getting a vaccine, when the disease it prevents has a 1 chance in 100 or better of killing someone your age is standing the numbers on their head.

Consider - on average - 2 people per 100,000 die per day (867 per year per 100,000). That is 2000 people per 100,000,000, or ~3000 PER DAY for 145 million. There are 2500 deaths over 100 days of vaccine administration for a total of 145,000,000 vaccine doses*, which -though I have not done an in depth analysis - looks an awful lot at first glance like 'in the noise' wrt the average death rate in the population - which is exactly what the CDC is saying.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

(* this number is 1st and 2nd doses total, which given the delay between 1st and 2nd dose and an increasing national vaccination rate comes out to between 90 and 100 million people)

[Mountain Man]

No, misinformation from non-scientific sources that makes unsubstantiated claims about anecdotal evidence has been posted.

Right, any source that doesn't tell you what you want to hear is immediately dismissed as "misinformation". You're a loyal little stooge of the state, helping them sell fear and keeping the population under its thumb. This is why conversations with your have become both tedious and pointless.

[seanD]

I meant it should be mandated at whatever level is appropriate per US law and medical ethics. The entire discussion was hypothetical in terms of what should be done. There are in fact real standards for what constitutes an ethical vaccination mandate and how it should be enforced up to and including potential criminality.

As far as I know those discussions have not been had wrt this disease. They certainly have been had wrt polio and small pox and it was determined to be ethical to mandate those vaccination programs. In fact in 1792 the state of Virginia enacted a penalty of $1500 ( about $43,000 in today's dollars)and 6 months in jail for anyone willfully spreading smallpox

And my guess is that is where this will come down as well. We probably won't be rounding up people that refuse to be vaccinated, but they may well pay more for insurance or be subject to lawsuits and financially culpable for actions that negligently infect others. They may also find employers won't hire them as they present an immediate danger to others ( the vaccines are not 100% effective). And most people faced with less income or the possibility of lawsuits will decide to get the vaccine, which is what is needed. The point after all is not to punish people, but to limit the spread of a deadly disease.



.

Just because government set a dangerous precedent in the past doesn't make it right now anymore than it did back then. Government also used that same precedent to engage in a eugenics program very shortly after they enforced smallpox vaccinations. Therein lies the slippery slope problem. Government has a natural propensity to abuse its power, typically for evil purposes, exemplified by its past eugenics program, and perfectly exemplified today by a Chinese authoritarian witch endorsing ruining people's livelihoods and destroying the economy to coerce them to get vaccinated. It's how evil pro-statist minds naturally think; it's par of for the course.

[oxmixmudd]

Right, any source that doesn't tell you what you want to hear is immediately dismissed as "misinformation". You're a loyal little stooge of the state, helping them sell fear and keeping the population under its thumb. This is why conversations with your have become both tedious and pointless.

No MM. And in the portion of my post you did not respond to is the difference. Real data from real science done by real scientists are the sources that have real meaning and value. Just like in global warming. Just like in the origins debates. It isn't what either of us wants to hear or believes, it is what the actual data interpreted according to known mathematical and scientific principles says.

And that is what I've given you in my posts, especially the portions you tend to ignore or cut away in your replies.

[kccd]

Right, any source that doesn't tell you what you want to hear is immediately dismissed as "misinformation". You're a loyal little stooge of the state, helping them sell fear and keeping the population under its thumb. This is why conversations with your have become both tedious and pointless.

Sources are legitimate only when they deal honestly with the available data, and the evaluation is done by people with training and expertise in the relevant fields.

Sometimes scientists find out that when the data is collected, it does not support their hypothesis, and real scientists understand they have to accept the conclusions that the data supports.

More than a half a million people have died from covid. Following masking and social distancing recommendations and getting a vaccine does not mean you are a stooge of the state. It means you are following accepted medical advice to protect yourself and the people around you. No different from wearing a car seat belt or refraining from smoking, esp in public places.

[Mountain Man]

No MM.

Yes, ox. For instance, earlier you claimed that we have an accurate count of China flu infections because of the PCR test. When it was pointed out that even the inventor of the PCR test had said that it was worthless as a diagnostic tool because it could be used to detect any amount of anything in the body, you dismissed it. When it was pointed out that doctors and hospitals have been playing fast and loose with what they categorize as China flu deaths, you claimed it was a conspiracy theory.

So anything that doesn't fit your narrative of fear and dread, you dismiss.

[oxmixmudd]

Yes, ox. For instance, earlier you claimed that we have an accurate count of [covid 19] infections because of the PCR test.

When it was pointed out that even the inventor of the PCR test had said that it was worthless as a diagnostic tool because it could be used to detect any amount of anything in the body, you dismissed it.

For the obvious reason it requires us to believe that all the doctors and researchers that have created the test and testing procedures are complete idiots or committed to some huge conspiracy to make believe covid is a pandemic.

Not buying it.

When it was pointed out that doctors and hospitals have been playing fast and loose with what they categorize as China flu deaths, you claimed it was a conspiracy theory.

So anything that doesn't fit your narrative of fear and dread, you dismiss.

Again, requiring one believe that universally all hospital doctors and administrators are in on the vast conspiracy to create the pandemic hoax and/or that they have no morals or ethics of any kind and are willing to risk the loss of their medical license or worse just to make covid numbers look worse than they actually are.

Again, NOT buying it.

And as I have pointed out. We have independent statistical data in the form of the raw death counts over the period which we can compare to previous years. Those raw statistics show excess deaths BEYOND the deaths attributed to covid 19 which at the very least shows the numbers are the correct order of magnitude but may well point to undercounting. So now you need the big conspiracy to have somehow faked this data too. And just like we see in the YEC sorts of debates you need a multitude of special and diverse 'explanations' for the intricately woven and consilient data that is what we call reality. Where every expected consequence is exactly where it should be if you have the correct hypothesis.

[Mountain Man]

In other news...

Dr. Anthony Fauci failed to answer questions during an interview with MSNBC Tuesday about how Texas could lift all Wuhan coronavirus restrictions while watching cases of the disease plummet. He claimed the situation was "confusing" and failed to admit he was wrong about dire predictions the state would see another surge.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...texas-n2587463

[Juvenal]

one week since my second shot. still no side effects.

Got my second dose today. I'm 2Vacc +8 hrs now, and I can only say the arm ache is considerably less than the first dose. I'm still dreading what I'm going to wake up to tomorrow. On the plus side, a tentacle has combined with the third eye leaving me with the ability to girlwatch in all directions.

Guys, get the vaccine.

This is awesome.

[oxmixmudd]

Got my second dose today. I'm 2Vacc +8 hrs now, and I can only say the arm ache is considerably less than the first dose. I'm still dreading what I'm going to wake up to tomorrow. On the plus side, a tentacle has combined with the third eye leaving me with the ability to girlwatch in all directions.

Guys, get the vaccine.

This is awesome.

That's how it was for me. 2nd dose arm soreness was less. Fatigue was my main symptom and it lasted a while, coming and going for almost a week. The main problem was being tempted to let down my guard too much. 1 to 2 weeks to full immunity.

[Juvenal]

Got my second dose today. I'm 2Vacc +8 hrs now, and I can only say the arm ache is considerably less than the first dose. I'm still dreading what I'm going to wake up to tomorrow. On the plus side, a tentacle has combined with the third eye leaving me with the ability to girlwatch in all directions.

Guys, get the vaccine.

This is awesome.

I woke up with more pain in my arm, fuzzy head, balance issues ... pretty much the same reactions I got from the first dose, though slightly less severe. Unlike the first dose, I "could" teach like this. But I still wouldn't, because anything less than 100 percent cuts into my patience and my corrections become sharper. Can't have that when I'm teaching remote.

[Juvenal]

Three weeks ago, everybody was getting the Pfizer vaccine at my site. This time around, only second dosers could get Pfizer. Everyone else was getting J&J. This is bothering me.

At 95 percent efficacy, Pfizer doesn't just offer protection, it puts a real crimp on the reproduction number. But according to the CDC ...

Information on how well the vaccine works

• The J&J/Janssen vaccine was 66.3% effective in clinical trials (efficacy) at preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 illness in people who had no evidence of prior infection 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine. People had the most protection 2 weeks after getting vaccinated.
• The vaccine had high efficacy at preventing hospitalization and death in people who did get sick. No one who got COVID-19 at least 4 weeks after receiving the J&J/Janssen vaccine had to be hospitalized.
• Early evidence suggests that the J&J/Janssen vaccine might provide protection against asymptomatic infection, which is when a person is infected by the virus that causes COVID-19 but does not get sick.
• CDC will continue to provide updates as we learn more about how well the J&J/Janssen vaccine works in real-world conditions.

66.3 percent is break-even for a reproduction number of 2.96. The variants are almost certainly more virulent than that, and the more virulent strains always win. If the entire country got the J&J vaccine, we still wouldn't achieve herd immunity.

J&J plus masking plus social distancing ... yeah, that'd work.

I don't see that happening.

[kccd]

I woke up with more pain in my arm, fuzzy head, balance issues ... pretty much the same reactions I got from the first dose, though slightly less severe. Unlike the first dose, I "could" teach like this. But I still wouldn't, because anything less than 100 percent cuts into my patience and my corrections become sharper. Can't have that when I'm teaching remote.

After my second dose I had a sore arm the next day. I had a temperature and was fatigued. Went to bed early and got up late the next day, and felt fine after that. Pfizer.

[seer]

Got my first shot today, in line with all races, black, white, brown. About 30 people - and they required a picture ID. Nazis! And everyone had one....

[rogue06]

Diverting briefly from specific focus on vaccines, here Dr. Makary disputes the recent doom-and-gloom 4th-wave pandemic predictions of Dr. Osterholm.

IIRC Fauci has also downplayed the concerns over a fourth wave.

At least this week.