Did Trump Cause An Insurrection?

[thormas]

All throughout his Presidency, Trump has supported and encouraged far right extremists like the Proud Boys while we have seen an increase in these groups' activity. The Trump administration reduced/eliminated funding from relevant counter-terrorism programs, ignored the growing threat, and diverted efforts to border issues. We also have previous examples of extremists entering or attempting to enter the capitol buildings in Michigan and Oregon and intel prior to the event was dismissed. The terrorist insurrection had many moving parts, but Roger Stone and Steve Bannon were both involved. After the election, Trump pushed the narrative that the election was stolen from him and that he is the rightful President-elect. He encouraged his base to attend the extremist protest. Then he says "We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore."

It really doesn't matter if he never directly called for violence. He encouraged far-right extremism, he pushed the stolen election narrative, then he told everyone to meet at the capitol building. The results were as expected. He was instrumental in the insurrection, and it's time for the sowers of the liberal doomsday narrative to face consequences.

All sadly true.

There was no fraud, the election was totally valid, trump lost and then he lied. This cannot be denied!

[whag]

You mean no evidence for what trump said (lied) was the century's biggest crime and a bunch of 'people' bought hook, line and sinker.

The biggest lie in modern political history, repeated ad nauseum by POTUS and posse from election night onward. Who'd have thunk that would stir righteous anger?

[thormas]

The biggest lie in modern political history, repeated ad nauseum by POTUS and posse from election night onward. Who'd have thunk that would stir righteous anger?

You and me both but what does that say about all the believers in such a corrupt man?

[seer]

You and me both but what does that say about all the believers in such a corrupt man?

It means we voted for the policies and not the man. Like the baby killing Hillary was better?

[thormas]

It means we voted for the policies and not the man. Like the baby killing Hillary was better?

I get that you voted for the policies but why did so many believe his lies (not to mention all the other lies) about the election and, of them, why did so many attack the Capital? This is purely idiotic given the election evidence of no fraud. And the legitimate Biden win.

[whag]

I get that you voted for the policies but why did so many believe his lies (not to mention all the other lies) about the election and, of them, why did so many attack the Capital? This is purely idiotic given the election evidence of no fraud. And the legitimate Biden win.

That’s not entirely fair, as we have to accept our respective party leaders lying. It’s a necessary part of civic governance. But Trump with his provocations and NPD was and is beyond the pale. I mean, is anyone here surprised that he stabbed his VP in the back in such a public way? It’s the obviousness of Trump’s mania and con that makes this era history making.

[oxmixmudd]

While I appreciate your spewing forth of what would be called in court "circumstantial evidence" at best, there are legal definitions of sedition and treason that do NOT include "nobody likes him" or "the rest of the world hates him".

Try this --- cite the actual legal definitions applicable from the appropriate statutes, and show where those bars or thresholds have been crossed.

I've already done that in previous posts, but here it is again:

Source: findlaw

Sedition is a serious felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison and it refers to the act of inciting revolt or violence against a lawful authority with the goal of destroying or overthrowing it

© Copyright Original Source

Source: webster

Sedition: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Dictionary.com

Sedition: noun

incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.
any action, especially in speech or writing, promoting such discontent or rebellion.

© Copyright Original Source

similarly insurrection:

Source: Dictionary.com

Insurrection:
noun

an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Webster

insurrection

: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

© Copyright Original Source

It is mostly self-explanatory if one reads the words Trump and those with him spoke and we observe what the crowd storming the capital did in response to them and what their stated goals were as they entered the building (which were rather clearly recorded in multiple videos)

Trumps clearly stated goal for the entire protest was to stop or interfere with the count of the EC votes, either through Pence unlawfully refusing to follow his constitutional duties, or by creating so much havoc through the protest they were forced to stop. All of which meets at least one of the above definitions of sedition.

My previous post was simply to show that there are many observing this that would normally sit on the sidelines - especially if there is any doubt - because their income is directly affected by taking action, and they are, after all, about making money. So that should inform you that this thing Trump did is so eggregious, so obvious, that even corporations, normally driven by their own greed to stay neutral about such events, have taken a strong stand against what he has done.

[Sparko]

Well I'm a liberal Democrat:

If KG was a credible threat to trump, the SS would handle it and I remember many people agreeing that she was wrong and the doll disgusting (and she paid a price).
Madonna, really? Does she even live in he US? But again SS.
Johnny Depp? Really? He's even losing movie contracts. Again SS.
Snoop Dog? No Really, I mean really??
What actor? Please, at least provide some details, obviously even you didn't think this one was serious since you don't even know the names.
Maxine Waters? Really? Not even all dems thing she has great credibility.

So, I never even heard of Madonna, Depp, Dog or the unknown actors doing anything so it apparently wasn't breaking news and for individual threats to the President, we trust the SS to investigate and act, if necessary. And I don't know the particulars on political free speech and when it crosses the line to a serious threat.

Plus, other than you, did many others know about this ridiculousness or if they knew, it apparently wasn't taken seriously by the Secet Service or........anybody. As you said, no arrests. Were they investigated? If not, I refer you to the SS not the democrats.

Yet you compare these people to the capital where how many were actually arrested and how many are being pursued? So the government and citizens of all stripes heard about the Capital and have taken it seriously.

But year, some unknown actors and Snoop have as large a bully pulpit as trump and incited thousands upon thousands upon thousands (you get the idea) by his lies upon lies upon lies to do what they did. Maybe we can get Madonna to put it to song for you. And the unknown actors that nobody remembers were more a direct call to violence and insurrection than trump? What were they trying to rally everybody from the Screen Actors Guild to attack the WH like tumpites did attack the Capital.

Please, reality check is necessary and a study of proportional punishment.

Nice handwave.

[Sparko]

I've already done that in previous posts, but here it is again:

Source: findlaw

Sedition is a serious felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison and it refers to the act of inciting revolt or violence against a lawful authority with the goal of destroying or overthrowing it

© Copyright Original Source

Source: webster

Sedition: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Dictionary.com

Sedition: noun

incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.
any action, especially in speech or writing, promoting such discontent or rebellion.

© Copyright Original Source

similarly insurrection:

Source: Dictionary.com

Insurrection:
noun

an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Webster

insurrection

: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

© Copyright Original Source

It is mostly self-explanatory if one reads the words Trump and those with him spoke and we observe what the crowd storming the capital did in response to them and what their stated goals were as they entered the building (which were rather clearly recorded in multiple videos)

Trumps clearly stated goal for the entire protest was to stop or interfere with the count of the EC votes, either through Pence unlawfully refusing to follow his constitutional duties, or by creating so much havoc through the protest they were forced to stop. All of which meets at least one of the above definitions of sedition.

My previous post was simply to show that there are many observing this that would normally sit on the sidelines - especially if there is any doubt - because their income is directly affected by taking action, and they are, after all, about making money. So that should inform you that this thing Trump did is so eggregious, so obvious, that even corporations, normally driven by their own greed to stay neutral about such events, have taken a strong stand against what he has done.

By those definitions the riots this summer were sedition and insurrections too.

[CivilDiscourse]

I've already done that in previous posts, but here it is again:

Source: findlaw

Sedition is a serious felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison and it refers to the act of inciting revolt or violence against a lawful authority with the goal of destroying or overthrowing it

© Copyright Original Source

Source: webster

Sedition: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Dictionary.com

Sedition: noun

incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.
any action, especially in speech or writing, promoting such discontent or rebellion.

© Copyright Original Source

similarly insurrection:

Source: Dictionary.com

Insurrection:
noun

an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Webster

insurrection

: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

© Copyright Original Source

It is mostly self-explanatory if one reads the words Trump and those with him spoke and we observe what the crowd storming the capital did in response to them and what their stated goals were as they entered the building (which were rather clearly recorded in multiple videos)

Trumps clearly stated goal for the entire protest was to stop or interfere with the count of the EC votes, either through Pence unlawfully refusing to follow his constitutional duties, or by creating so much havoc through the protest they were forced to stop. All of which meets at least one of the above definitions of sedition.

My previous post was simply to show that there are many observing this that would normally sit on the sidelines - especially if there is any doubt - because their income is directly affected by taking action, and they are, after all, about making money. So that should inform you that this thing Trump did is so eggregious, so obvious, that even corporations, normally driven by their own greed to stay neutral about such events, have taken a strong stand against what he has done.

By the way, you left this out of your FindLaw source.

Source: https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/sedition.html

Free Speech, Sedition, and Treason


In order to get a conviction for seditious conspiracy, the government must prove that the defendant in fact conspired to use force. Simply advocating for the use of force is not the same thing and in most cases is protected as free speech under the First Amendment. For example, two or more people who give public speeches suggesting the need for a total revolution "by any means necessary" have not necessarily conspired to overthrow the government. Rather, they're just sharing their opinions, however unsavory. But actively planning such an action (distributing guns, working out the logistics of an attack, actively opposing lawful authority, etc.) could be considered a seditious conspiracy.

Ultimately, the goal is to prevent threats against the United States while protecting individuals' First Amendment rights, which isn't always such a clear distinction.


Sedition differs from treason (defined in Article III of the U.S. Constitution) in a fundamental way. While seditious conspiracy is generally defined as conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of a state, treason is the more serious offense of actively levying war against the United States or giving aid to its enemies. Another way of looking at it is that seditious conspiracy often occurs before an act of treason.

© Copyright Original Source

[thormas]

That’s not entirely fair, as we have to accept our respective party leaders lying. It’s a necessary part of civic governance. But Trump with his provocations and NPD was and is beyond the pale. I mean, is anyone here surprised that he stabbed his VP in the back in such a public way? It’s the obviousness of Trump’s mania and con that makes this era history making.

There is lying and then there is lying that inflames the country and create an alternate reality that is not at all true - which has now led to an insurrection, destruction and death. We agree that trump was beyond the pale

[thormas]

Nice handwave.

Thanks, I was truing to imitate Elizabeth :+}

[seer]

I get that you voted for the policies but why did so many believe his lies (not to mention all the other lies) about the election and, of them, why did so many attack the Capital? This is purely idiotic given the election evidence of no fraud. And the legitimate Biden win.

The reason why people believe the election thing is because they have seen the Democrats/leftists try to remove Trump from day one, using a false meme. He was illegitimate, a Russian asset, a traitor, etc...They just don't trust the process or the ruling class.

[seer]

There is lying and then there is lying that inflames the country and create an alternate reality that is not at all true - which has now led to an insurrection, destruction and death. We agree that trump was beyond the pale

Right like the alternate reality, "hands up don't shoot", that burnt cities down?

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/...t-false-216736

[Electric Skeptic]

Holy crap. We agree on something...

Wonders never cease. And you know I'm no Trump fan...but I think many on the left are getting carried away with the idea of holding him accountable.

I think at most a motion of censure or similar would have been sufficient.