Proposed California Split

[Pinoy]

May be the silicon valley need just to make a special economic zone (legislate to have lower taxes).

Or instead of dividing the state, divide the municipalities (this will be more local level governance).

And redistricting is always done in the US.

[lilpixieofterror]

You cited "only case." I assumed Maine from Massachusetts was an oversight.

I just cited the last case, which was what... over 150 years ago? I just doubt it will ever happen (at least in the near future). The north and south will keep bickering with one another until the end of time though. Just as they always have (in fact, counties often bicker with one another, I remember people wanting to split San Bernardino county up back when I was a kid).

[Outis]

I just cited the last case, which was what... over 150 years ago? I just doubt it will ever happen (at least in the near future). The north and south will keep bickering with one another until the end of time though. Just as they always have (in fact, counties often bicker with one another, I remember people wanting to split San Bernardino county up back when I was a kid).

Um ... no. You cited "only case."

Unless "only" only means "only" when you say it does?

[lilpixieofterror]

Um ... no. You cited "only case."

Unless "only" only means "only" when you say it does?

Meh, I forgot about that case and it all depends if you really count Maine as once being part of Mass. or not anyway. It will not happen in the near future for Cali though and Southern Cali will keep fighting about their tax money going north and Northern Cali will keep fighting about their water going south until the day the world ends. Business as usual.

[Outis]

Meh, I forgot about that case

It happens. None of us are perfect.

and it all depends if you really count Maine as once being part of Mass. or not anyway.

It matters not if I count it as such. Congress certainly did. Maine's vote to secede from Massachusetts was what led Massachusetts to petition Congress to allow Maine to secede. Congress granted that permission as part of the Missouri Compromise.

It will not happen in the near future for Cali though and Southern Cali will keep fighting about their tax money going north and Northern Cali will keep fighting about their water going south until the day the world ends. Business as usual.

I too doubt that it will happen. The infrastructure issues alone would be enough to make residents of SoCal think twice. And as I said before, there are too many vested interests in Sacramento and DC.

[lilpixieofterror]

It happens. None of us are perfect.

And the funny thing is that I just watched a special on the US presidents just last week and the Missouri Compromise was part of it.

It matters not if I count it as such. Congress certainly did. Maine's vote to secede from Massachusetts was what led Massachusetts to petition Congress to allow Maine to secede. Congress granted that permission as part of the Missouri Compromise.

See though, they both agreed on seceding. I'd be really surprised if the split of Cali got much further then it already has.

I too doubt that it will happen. The infrastructure issues alone would be enough to make residents of SoCal think twice. And as I said before, there are too many vested interests in Sacramento and DC.

Oh yeah. The split lines they are proposing would mean the aqueducts that travel to LA would be going though 2-3 states (depending on which one we are talking about) and there's issues with how that would work out (could LA end up having to pay out of nose for this water?). Plus the power grid, the freeway system, ect are all interconnected as well. It also isn't uncommon for people to communicate as much of an hour and that might mean a split in states for some. That would make your taxes as mess I bet. Just as sorts of issues that would need to be worked out before we could even begin.

[rogue06]

The word is spelled "Secession."

I was trying to give one for CP to jump on considering recent history

Can't blame him for letting it slip past though since he has a lot on his mind as of late

< for CP

[Outis]

See though, they both agreed on seceding.

In any splitting of a state, yes, the state government must be the party to petition Congress. In this specific case, the main government of Mass allowed the northern part of the state to vote on whether or not they wanted to secede from the main state and set up their own government. (In the case of WV, on the other hand, Congress simply agreed to accept the petition because Virginia was in a state of insurrection.)

Just as sorts of issues that would need to be worked out before we could even begin.

*shakes head* It won't get that far. Lao tzu said it best: this is a rich man who wants to whine because his vote doesn't count for more than it does.

[One Bad Pig]

The latter.

I knew someone would like that.

[lilpixieofterror]

In any splitting of a state, yes, the state government must be the party to petition Congress. In this specific case, the main government of Mass allowed the northern part of the state to vote on whether or not they wanted to secede from the main state and set up their own government. (In the case of WV, on the other hand, Congress simply agreed to accept the petition because Virginia was in a state of insurrection.)

Which is one reason, of many, that a split of Cali will unlikely never happen.

*shakes head* It won't get that far. Lao tzu said it best: this is a rich man who wants to whine because his vote doesn't count for more than it does.

Maybe he should do what most rich people do. Buy a few politicians and call it good.

[Cow Poke]

I was trying to give one for CP to jump on considering recent history

I thought you were doing a play on words.

[Carrikature]

I looked into this topic when the "secession petitions" started going around after the 2012 election. (Talk about political bloviating! ) You've got it a little backwards: the territory had to have a government in place, and the government of the territory has to petition Congress to join the Union. The same is true of joining or subdividing states: the petitioning state must petition Congress. West Virginia snuck by because at that time, they were the only operating territory in Virginia that was not in a state of insurrection.

I'm mostly aware of this even if my post didn't specifically evidence such. My point is really that precedent and ability exists, if people really wanted to force it. The petition method being implemented is the wrong way to go about it, regardless.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The goal of this plan is to break one state into six states, each having its own separate state government. Yes, each separate state government would be dealing with less people.

A more informal analysis? The folks in the rich parts of the states don't want their state tax dollars going to other parts of the state.

It's not terribly important, but I'll try to clarify. I understand that each state would have its own government. I'm saying that the representative districts could be redrawn, so it's not a given that each state has a smaller government. It's a population distribution thing. A smaller state means they could redistrict to better represent the people by breaking them up into smaller groups. If I had a million people represented by one person, I could now change to have a million people represented by ten people.

[Outis]

I'm mostly aware of this even if my post didn't specifically evidence such.

I think we're actually agreeing, but you were speaking less formally, and I was reading it more formally. Which means my habit of pedantry is showing again.

The petition method being implemented is the wrong way to go about it, regardless.

Oh, the petition is perfectly fine in this case--the petition will be addressed to the state government, and the state government will decide on how to proceed from there: reject the petition, put the matter up to a plebiscite, or decide within the legislature. It was the Whitehouse petitions that were completely ridiculous: the President has no authority to allow a state to secede.

It's not terribly important, but I'll try to clarify. I understand that each state would have its own government. I'm saying that the representative districts could be redrawn, so it's not a given that each state has a smaller government. It's a population distribution thing. A smaller state means they could redistrict to better represent the people by breaking them up into smaller groups. If I had a million people represented by one person, I could now change to have a million people represented by ten people.

On this one, I think we're looking at things from different directions. What I was talking about is if California has (just off the top of my head) 30 million people, and the state divisions were more-or-less equal, each resulting state would have only five million. But again, I seem to be waving the pedant flag.

[Carrikature]

I think we're actually agreeing, but you were speaking less formally, and I was reading it more formally. Which means my habit of pedantry is showing again.

Happens.

On this one, I think we're looking at things from different directions. What I was talking about is if California has (just off the top of my head) 30 million people, and the state divisions were more-or-less equal, each resulting state would have only five million. But again, I seem to be waving the pedant flag.

I've just taken it a step farther is all. I'm just pointing out that the representative-to-population ratio could conceivably be adjusted. If it's a million people per representative now (making up numbers), that's 30 representatives. Splitting it up gives you 5 representatives per state. If you then adjusted the ratio to be 6 representatives per million, you're back to 30 representatives.

I've no idea if that's really how's it done, but it seems like it *should* be. Time for more government lessons it seems...

[supton]

And again, that was almost 2 centuries ago and we were dealing with kind of a backwater place at that.

I used to live in Maine. It's still a backwater place.