Socialism derail

[Carrikature]

If only it were that simple. $15/hour isn't here in Texas yet...so that's not even an answer. And that is only an attempt to answer the second question, why did you ignore the first question?

It's not anywhere, afaik. There are a few places with long-term plans to get there, but they're 3-5 year implementation schemes.

[Carrikature]

Because he has to work for a living. He just wants to walk out to the mailbox and collect a check. Better yet - we have direct deposit!

Give it time. Basic income is on its way. I'm a fan of it, at least.

[Cow Poke]

Give it time. Basic income is on its way. I'm a fan of it, at least.

Would you mind starting a thread on "Basic Income", so as not to derail this one.

[Carrikature]

Would you mind starting a thread on "Basic Income", so as not to derail this one.

I don't know if you posted this before the derail thread was made. I don't mind making a separate thread on it, though. I've been toying with doing so anyway. Think Civics is better or Economics?

[Cow Poke]

I don't know if you posted this before the derail thread was made. I don't mind making a separate thread on it, though. I've been toying with doing so anyway. Think Civics is better or Economics?

Either, just let me know where.

Thanks

[thewriteranon]

Maybe you should read the book Anthem. OR how about you consider that some people have multiple talents and don't want to do just one thing for there entire lives. You know, in fact I know several people like that, For example I know a pastor who had another job coaching High School Basketball, and I know a computer Engineer whose also a part time musician, and I know school teacher who does music for weddings, a dancer who's also a psychologist and another piano teacher whose a dancer. I know a music teacher who is also working on a masters in psychology, and I myself used to clean houses and work in a home health care setting. Look my point is why would you resign yourself one position if you like doing two things or even three? Its ridiculous. Part of the beauty in the U.S and even other Societies is the fact that we HAVE CHOICES!!!!

People also discover talents and interests late in life (or later at least). Not to mention, my entire school career I alternated between being better at history and English, but then my senior year my best subject was calculus of all things! That's not even counting the fine arts teachers who wanted me to go into theatre (dancing and acting), but I had less than zero desire to perform professionally. I ended up majoring in history and now I'm in seminary and applying for a dual degree with the law school. And then there's the fact that I discovered I had a natural affinity for French in college. Man, you can't just decide a 17/18-year-old's path at high school graduation.

[Raphael]

People also discover talents and interests late in life (or later at least). Not to mention, my entire school career I alternated between being better at history and English, but then my senior year my best subject was calculus of all things! That's not even counting the fine arts teachers who wanted me to go into theatre (dancing and acting), but I had less than zero desire to perform professionally. I ended up majoring in history and now I'm in seminary and applying for a dual degree with the law school. And then there's the fact that I discovered I had a natural affinity for French in college. Man, you can't just decide a 17/18-year-old's path at high school graduation.

When I was in high school they sent us all to do Meyers-Briggs tests to try help us decide which career our character was best suited to. My results told me to have nothing to do with computers and to become a chef or an author.

.......

I'm a software developer (having decided I wanted to enter IT when I was in high school and having studied it at Technikon and it's been my field since I graduated. I also seriously considered studying to become a Civil Engineer (as one of my brothers and my one cousin is).

[jordanriver]

Maybe you should read the book Anthem. OR how about you consider that some people have multiple talents and don't want to do just one thing for there entire lives. You know, in fact I know several people like that, For example I know a pastor who had another job coaching High School Basketball, and I know a computer Engineer whose also a part time musician, and I know school teacher who does music for weddings, a dancer who's also a psychologist and another piano teacher whose a dancer. I know a music teacher who is also working on a masters in psychology, and I myself used to clean houses and work in a home health care setting. Look my point is why would you resign yourself one position if you like doing two things or even three? Its ridiculous. Part of the beauty in the U.S and even other Societies is the fact that we HAVE CHOICES!!!!

Anthem?
what? Marxism causes society to become scientific ignorance??
...from chapter one "we learned that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, ....we learned how to bleed men and cure them of all ailments"

and later someone was burned alive for saying the unspoken word??

Was Rand suggesting assigned careers causes people to become the freaking Taliban??


Two names for you and Ayn, Sputnik (1957), and Yuri Gagarin (1961)

and another , within 20 years of its existence, Red China launching satellites.

look, Cath, Rand was influenced by her experience in Russia, a dark country before communism, a culture used to not having any choices for a thousand years, slavery/serfdom/peasants, spouses chosen for them,

That's not Americans,

....or do you believe if Americans go Commie they're going to become Russian? Or Chinese peasants used to warlords and oppression?

Who says they have to work only one career? They can work sun up to sun down if they want, as long as they understand it all pays the same, and you don't get somebody else's share of apples just because they only want to work their one job.

And if everybody works for the same company as the US Post office (the company called USA) when work slows down , and they have produced enough product, they don't get laid off and can't pay their bills like it is in Capitalism.

In a single factory now, if one division is way ahead , the workers go to another department and chip in and help there, since its the same company.

If USA is one big company, if one division already has enough product, they can help in another area, and everybody gets to go home early. Nobody is "unemployed"

If somebody, LIKE I SAID, thinks there has been a mistake in assignment, then they can try something else they want to do, and if they are good at that, good for them.

If they are good at music, great, the welders and the dishwashers and the assemblers and the teachers and the streetsweepers and the doctors and nurses and roofers and lettuce pickers and construction workers and janitors and policemen and cooks and painters ....all need entertainment, all need music to listen to and dramas to watch.

If the musicians and actors and athletes think they shouldn't have to perform unless they get a bigger share of resources like it was for Money Mayweather, or Taylor Swift or Jack Nicholson, well, nobody is forcing them to perform their talent, they can put on a pair of leather chaps and a leather apron , and a helmut and help with the welding in the factory.

If doctors think their talent deserves a greater share of resources than the janitor, or that if they are only going to be allowed the same resources as the janitor , then they shouldn't have to work any harder than the janitor, fine, grab a mop.

But I think healers gotta heal.

I think teachers gotta teach.

[jordanriver]

When I was in high school they sent us all to do Meyers-Briggs tests to try help us decide which career our character was best suited to. My results told me to have nothing to do with computers and to become a chef or an author.

.......

I'm a software developer (having decided I wanted to enter IT when I was in high school and having studied it at Technikon and it's been my field since I graduated. I also seriously considered studying to become a Civil Engineer (as one of my brothers and my one cousin is).

Meyers Briggs is not the teachers who know their students.

Look, when I was in HS, almost 5 decades ago, even then you could pretty much tell where the kids were heading, the kids in Pre-Med actually did become doctors, the guys who excelled in shop and general auto mechanics, (who made me ponder, sheesh, why do they need this class, they already know how to fix cars) , they became machinists and , well, mechanics. The smartest kids went on to college , encouraged by their teachers who could tell what they were good at, whether it was science or math, and the right kids when to the same teachers college in Emporia KS that was listed next to most of my teachers' names in the yearbooks.

Sure, some of them probably changed careers later on, found new interests. Why wouldn't that be allowed?

We're not Russians.

[Catholicity]

Anthem?
what? Marxism causes society to become scientific ignorance??
...from chapter one "we learned that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, ....we learned how to bleed men and cure them of all ailments"

and later someone was burned alive for saying the unspoken word??

Was Rand suggesting assigned careers causes people to become the freaking Taliban??


Two names for you and Ayn, Sputnik (1957), and Yuri Gagarin (1961)

and another , within 20 years of its existence, Red China launching satellites.

look, Cath, Rand was influenced by her experience in Russia, a dark country before communism, a culture used to not having any choices for a thousand years, slavery/serfdom/peasants, spouses chosen for them,

That's not Americans,

....or do you believe if Americans go Commie they're going to become Russian? Or Chinese peasants used to warlords and oppression?

Who says they have to work only one career? They can work sun up to sun down if they want, as long as they understand it all pays the same, and you don't get somebody else's share of apples just because they only want to work their one job.

And if everybody works for the same company as the US Post office (the company called USA) when work slows down , and they have produced enough product, they don't get laid off and can't pay their bills like it is in Capitalism.

In a single factory now, if one division is way ahead , the workers go to another department and chip in and help there, since its the same company.

If USA is one big company, if one division already has enough product, they can help in another area, and everybody gets to go home early. Nobody is "unemployed"

If somebody, LIKE I SAID, thinks there has been a mistake in assignment, then they can try something else they want to do, and if they are good at that, good for them.

If they are good at music, great, the welders and the dishwashers and the assemblers and the teachers and the streetsweepers and the doctors and nurses and roofers and lettuce pickers and construction workers and janitors and policemen and cooks and painters ....all need entertainment, all need music to listen to and dramas to watch.

If the musicians and actors and athletes think they shouldn't have to perform unless they get a bigger share of resources like it was for Money Mayweather, or Taylor Swift or Jack Nicholson, well, nobody is forcing them to perform their talent, they can put on a pair of leather chaps and a leather apron , and a helmut and help with the welding in the factory.

If doctors think their talent deserves a greater share of resources than the janitor, or that if they are only going to be allowed the same resources as the janitor , then they shouldn't have to work any harder than the janitor, fine, grab a mop.

But I think healers gotta heal.

I think teachers gotta teach.

This is what you are advocating though, the very societies that former Marxists hate. Ayn Rand wrote Anthem as hyperbole. In Russia if you want an economic out you had to be someone the government really likes. There was no idea of induvidualism and there was no appreciation for a person's uniqueness. I'm so glad you don't get to decide what people's talents are. My husband for one is very unique and gifted academically and a talented musician, but the best career he's had? Is a mailman, and only in the US can a person choose for themselves what kind of life they want. Maybe one day he'll decide otherwise, and i'm glad HE will decide and not some arbitrator in the government.

[Carrikature]

When I was in high school they sent us all to do Meyers-Briggs tests to try help us decide which career our character was best suited to. My results told me to have nothing to do with computers and to become a chef or an author.

.......

I'm a software developer (having decided I wanted to enter IT when I was in high school and having studied it at Technikon and it's been my field since I graduated. I also seriously considered studying to become a Civil Engineer (as one of my brothers and my one cousin is).

We don't know nearly enough about how talents work to attempt to use personality tests like this to determine what you should do. That said, I've taken a battery of tests which were evaluated by a psychologist to determine both what my interests are and what sort of tasks I'm good at doing. That was pretty useful. The U.S. military uses the ASVAB exams to determine what they want you to do for them. Those sorts of things can work well.

[Sparko]

they were Marxist?

they were a classless egalitarian society?

Where no one had power over other people to declare them "enemies of the state" and have them executed?

Marxist?

what Marx brothers are you referring to?

............

then there's your strawman, defining my position. "...want a magic land where everyone is rich and never has to work..."

I would like to see a nation where nobody is rich and everybody participates in the labor


that's completely the opposite of your mind-reading attempt.

1. Yes, all those countries claim to be Marxist/Leninist. The fact that they don't actually follow the "plan" should tell you something about socialism.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o....80.93Leninist
2. Oh great, well if you want a country where everyone is poor, then socialism IS the right one for you after all. Although, you seem to think you are poor already so why are you complaining? Just jealous that not EVERYONE is a poor as you?

[Sparko]

again, you are still comparing Americans to those countries with a history of brutality and having brutal leaders.

Are you saying Americans are too stupid to rule themselves. What do you need a leader for if you have direct democracy, (we have the technology, everybody can decide laws with their phone)

All you would need to elect is managers, to oversee infrastructure and food production and manufacturing.

ELECT, not self appointed "entrepreneurs", not appointed supervisors, but ELECTED managers.

a DEMOCRATIC process.

Have you SEEN the politicians we have as leaders? You want them to have total power over you? Yes I think that if America were to become communist, that it would end up as a dictatorship just like Russia and China and Cuba and all of the other communist countries. If not even ONE communist country can not be a totalitarian dictatorship, what makes you think America would be any different? Wishful thinking?

And now instead of socialism you want a democracy instead of a republic? That just ends up being tyranny by the majority. Instead of being fair, the largest groups will tell the minority groups how they want things to be. And you will have no choice but to obey. What if the majority decides that everyone in your area will become slaves and work for free and live in cardboard huts? Don't like it? Too bad. The majority wants it that way. Have you seen the idiots on facebook? do you really want them running the country?

[Sparko]

uh huh.

make them depend on the kindness of strangers.

make them come to you, hat in hand, so you can show them how charitable you are.

make them beggars. For the crime of being slow.

are you just trolling now? because that is the most asinine post you have made so far.

If Raphael wants to keep everything for himself, you call him greedy. If he wants to help others, you mock him for taking advantage of people by "making them come to you hat in hand"

Can't win with you can he?

dumbass. That is what you are. A complete and total whiny, crybaby, idiotic, lazy, dumbass.

Do you want to know why most entrepreneurs work at making their business successful? To provide for their family first. Is that greedy and wrong? No. Second, they want to help others, to give them jobs, to make the world a better place with their products. The computer you are using now was invented by entrepreneurs. How many spinoff companies did the first PC's create? How many jobs are dependent on computers today? How much has computers helped everyone? And you don't think that the people who invented this great thing should make money off of it? Heck the world would be a LOT worse off if we didn't have computers. They are worth every penny that those pioneers made on them.

[Sparko]

if everybody was assigned according to their talent, what would you need money for?

So if I am a genius, they would enslave me to design rocket ships all day long, and if you were an idiot (which clearly you are) you would get to sit at home watching cartoons and we would have the same lifestyle, except I would be working my butt off while you didn't do anything at all. Is that fair? Why should I have to work just because I am smarter than you? Why can't I just sit at home watching cartoons too?