Originally posted by seven7up
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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The Decline of Mormonism
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostHe knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.
"Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt is quite clear from the context you gave that Joseph Smith at best misunderstood what Paul meant by "boasting," since Smith's boasting is clearly of a different character: "I shall always beat them..."; "I will hold on and fly over them"; "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam." Paul never says anything comparable to these genuine boasts. Joseph Smith is boasting in his strength; Paul is "boasting" in his weakness. Are you blind, that you cannot see such fundamental differences?
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostAnti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).
When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."
Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostI am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostI am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.
Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostHe knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.
"Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostIncorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.
That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.
The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.
-7up
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostMormons NEVER give the whole background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false picture of Smith as a prophet, rather than the truth that he was a lying ....
-CP
Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).
When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."
Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.
-7up
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?
To me, that by itself shows that Mormonism is false and that Satan might be behind it.
That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.
The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.
-7up
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Please, look at the evidence. Don't try to dismiss each part separately. take a look at the WHOLE. Big picture it.
Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.
-7up
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostFor now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.
He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.
"Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.
-7up
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostExactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat's why, in that one video that talks about Smith's "vision", there's all that scary music and demonic sounding stuff --- it was Satan filling Smith with this nonsense. And 7up swallows it hook, line, sinker and rod. Heck, he even swallows the boat!
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