Announcement

Collapse

LDS - Mormonism Guidelines

Theists only.

Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.

Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin


Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Decline of Mormonism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ke7ejx
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


    When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


    Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


    -7up
    I did not take anything out of context. We're talking about the same man who said that no one save perhaps Christ has done for humanity as much as he did. I also resent you calling me an Anti-Mormon. I love Mormons and I'm still friends with a few of them in the real world. It's the doctrines that I reject. Please get your facts straight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.
    No it isn't. The verb makes a Hebrew noun ending in "-im" become plural or singular, but on its own, elohim is not a "plural noun" in Hebrew.

    "Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.
    And you can document this specifically with official LDS scripture, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    It is quite clear from the context you gave that Joseph Smith at best misunderstood what Paul meant by "boasting," since Smith's boasting is clearly of a different character: "I shall always beat them..."; "I will hold on and fly over them"; "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam." Paul never says anything comparable to these genuine boasts. Joseph Smith is boasting in his strength; Paul is "boasting" in his weakness. Are you blind, that you cannot see such fundamental differences?
    Exactly, Paul it was obvious that Paul was uncomfortable in his "boasting" ... "Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft..."

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


    When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


    Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


    -7up
    Smith was a false prophet and an egotist. It's sad you got sucked into his web.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.
    But you fail to take his whole life in context - the womanizing, greed (starting his own bank), bilking his own people out of their land and possessions, preaching against booze, but running a bar in his own hotel, prancing around as a self-made general, making himself the grand poobah of the Masons... He was egocentric, not Christ-centric.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.

    Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.

    -7up
    It is quite clear from the context you gave that Joseph Smith at best misunderstood what Paul meant by "boasting," since Smith's boasting is clearly of a different character: "I shall always beat them..."; "I will hold on and fly over them"; "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam." Paul never says anything comparable to these genuine boasts. Joseph Smith is boasting in his strength; Paul is "boasting" in his weakness. Are you blind, that you cannot see such fundamental differences?

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.
    You can back that up with evidence, right?
    "Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.

    -7up
    "Jehovah" is a transliteration of YHWH via Latin and German with the vowels for Adonai. The KJV misread it, and Joseph Smith followed it in his error, just like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
    Incorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.

    That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.

    The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.

    -7up
    sure satan thought he was greater than God, and his lie to mankind was (and is) that men can become Gods. That is his lie to the LDS. You will never be a God. You are a creature. God created you. God was not created. You will always just be a creature. You will never have your own planet to lord it over. That you even want such a thing shows hubris as bad as Satan's.

    Leave a comment:


  • seven7up
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Mormons NEVER give the whole background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false picture of Smith as a prophet, rather than the truth that he was a lying ....

    -CP

    Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


    When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


    Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


    -7up

    Leave a comment:


  • seven7up
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?

    To me, that by itself shows that Mormonism is false and that Satan might be behind it.
    Incorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.

    That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.

    The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.

    -7up

    Leave a comment:


  • seven7up
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    Please, look at the evidence. Don't try to dismiss each part separately. take a look at the WHOLE. Big picture it.
    I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.

    Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.

    -7up

    Leave a comment:


  • seven7up
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.

    He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.

    "Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.

    -7up

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Exactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.
    Well just like they change the definition of many Christian terms in order to fool people into believing they are Christians, they also change the real Jesus of the bible, to a phony Jesus of the BoM and Smith's imagination. A separate God, a literal brother to Satan (and us apparently).

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    It just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"
    Exactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    That's why, in that one video that talks about Smith's "vision", there's all that scary music and demonic sounding stuff --- it was Satan filling Smith with this nonsense. And 7up swallows it hook, line, sinker and rod. Heck, he even swallows the boat!
    It just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"

    Leave a comment:

widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Working...
X