Announcement

Collapse

LDS - Mormonism Guidelines

Theists only.

Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.

Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin


Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Decline of Mormonism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    funny I dont recall Paul boasting he did more than Jesus for the church. Or that the followers of Jesus ran away from him but none did from Paul. Paul never boasted like Smith.
    Joseph employed the exact same literary approach that Paul the Apostle did. In context, Joseph engaged in the exact same literary approach and even said that this was his intention. Here is what Joseph said right after reading this chapter of Paul's to the congregation:

    "My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did, I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them."

    Joseph followed these statements with his own "boasting", in the same way that Paul made outrageous "boasts" to contrast his position with the position of those who the Corinthians were starting to listen to. Paul starts the next chapter of 2 Corinthians with the statement "boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable." Paul says that boasting was necessary at times against the wicked/hard-hearted (though it may do little good, being unprofitable).

    The people who had personally attacked Joseph were right there in the crowd; THAT IS THE CONTEXT.

    Now, let's look at another context. Consider this, in a personal letter to Emma Smith:

    "I will try to be contented with my lot, knowing that God is my friend. In him I shall find comfort. I have given my life into his hands. I am prepared to go at his call. I desire to be with Christ. I count not my life dear to me [except] to do his will."

    Now if you claim he was only humble in private, but not in public, consider also the following statement, made in public:

    "I do not think there have been many good men on the earth since the days of Adam; but there was one good man and his name was Jesus. Many persons think a prophet must be a great deal better than anybody else....I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not."

    Again, there are SO NUMEROUS the instances where Joseph Smith indicated that he depended on Christ for salvation, and so clear his teachings that he was nothing more than a flawed human being, that accusations whereby anti-mormons pretend that Joseph Smith supposedly taught that he was better than Jesus won't be taken seriously by any honest investigator.

    -7up

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
      It's all about the context in which it is used. Joseph wasn't comparing himself to Moses.

      It's very clearly an allusion to the verse I quoted. I'm not seeing how it's not a comparison to Moses.

      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      I think it's completely appropriate to use this quote against Joseph Smith. There's a rather large difference between:

      "I have made you like God to Pharaoh"

      and

      "He will make me be God to you in His stead"

      God Himself saying He will make Moses "LIKE God" (elohim means "one with strong authority") is not anywhere near Joseph Smith boasting "God will make me be God to you in his stead". Being Like God is not the same as being a God.
      I think at worst this quote shows either a Freudian slip, or bad wording on Joseph Smith's part. For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

        I think at worst this quote shows either a Freudian slip, or bad wording on Joseph Smith's part. For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.
        He didn't know what the words meant. He eventually settled on Elohim being the Father's real name and YHWH being Jesus' real name
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          Joseph employed the exact same literary approach that Paul the Apostle did.
          um, no. He didn't. He outright boasted that he was greater than Jesus. Paul never even THOUGHT that, much less boast it. That is pure blasphemy. Smith showed his true colors that day. His pride was exposed, and like Satan, he thought to put himself above God. Instead, he was cast down.

          I truly believe that Smith's death was a punishment from God for his blasphemy and trying to lead people into damnation instead of salvation.

          You, seven7up, have been deluded by those wretches who instead of taking Smith's death as a sign from God, continued his cult and his false gospel.

          Please, look at the evidence. Don't try to dismiss each part separately. take a look at the WHOLE. Big picture it.

          Smith was an ego maniac and a con artist. What do you think of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology? Smith was the 19th century version of L. Ron Hubbard. You can see the way Hubbard conned people and made up a religion, but you are blind to the fact that Smith did the same thing.

          He made up stories, changed them constantly, tried to start a bank filled with rocks, had a hotel that served booze, stole the wives of his closest followers, told his wife that if she didn't go along with it, she would be damned. Had mormons dress up like indians and murder people. Destroyed a printing press because he didn't like being exposed. Mormonism is a travesty of Christianity.

          Your rationalizations are the words of a drowning man, desperately clutching at weeds while the river of truth drags you down.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            J
            Anti-Mormons will never give the background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false caricature of Joseph, rather than the truth.

            -7up
            Mormons NEVER give the whole background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false picture of Smith as a prophet, rather than the truth that he was a lying womanizing money digging con artist who made himself a general, a grand poobah, a false prophet....

            -CP
            Last edited by Cow Poke; 03-01-2016, 08:28 AM.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #96
              I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?

              To me, that by itself shows that Mormonism is false and that Satan might be behind it. What better way to fool mankind than to make a counterfeit of Christianity (the best lies have a grain of truth in them) and appeal to man's greed and pride by promising them godhood? That was the very same lie he gave to Eve when he tricked her into eating the forbidden fruit. And he is still using that very same lie today. Why change a winning strategy, I guess? Give people a false Christ to lead them astray, and then promise them that they can be like God. People are greedy enough to fall for it. Just like they fall for the whole word of faith movement that promises they can control God like a genie and get whatever they want. Satan's lies are always the same. And foolish men fall for them and drag their families and decedents along with them.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?
                That's why, in that one video that talks about Smith's "vision", there's all that scary music and demonic sounding stuff --- it was Satan filling Smith with this nonsense. And 7up swallows it hook, line, sinker and rod. Heck, he even swallows the boat!
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  That's why, in that one video that talks about Smith's "vision", there's all that scary music and demonic sounding stuff --- it was Satan filling Smith with this nonsense. And 7up swallows it hook, line, sinker and rod. Heck, he even swallows the boat!
                  It just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    It just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"
                    Exactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Exactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.
                      Well just like they change the definition of many Christian terms in order to fool people into believing they are Christians, they also change the real Jesus of the bible, to a phony Jesus of the BoM and Smith's imagination. A separate God, a literal brother to Satan (and us apparently).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.

                        He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.

                        "Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.

                        -7up

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          Please, look at the evidence. Don't try to dismiss each part separately. take a look at the WHOLE. Big picture it.
                          I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.

                          Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.

                          -7up

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?

                            To me, that by itself shows that Mormonism is false and that Satan might be behind it.
                            Incorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.

                            That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.

                            The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.

                            -7up

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Mormons NEVER give the whole background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false picture of Smith as a prophet, rather than the truth that he was a lying ....

                              -CP

                              Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


                              When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


                              Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


                              -7up

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                                Incorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.

                                That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.

                                The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.

                                -7up
                                sure satan thought he was greater than God, and his lie to mankind was (and is) that men can become Gods. That is his lie to the LDS. You will never be a God. You are a creature. God created you. God was not created. You will always just be a creature. You will never have your own planet to lord it over. That you even want such a thing shows hubris as bad as Satan's.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X