The Internet is Destroying the LDS Church

[Cow Poke]

LDS missionaries are 1 or 2 years out of high school. They know basic stuff but do you really expect them to be on the same level as a life long member that is say 50 years old?

And when they get their first whiskers, they're Elders, right?

Sorry

[carbon dioxide]

Do you believe it is necessary to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet in order to get into Heaven? And, just to be clear, we're talking about the BEST Heaven, not trailer park heaven.

I will expand that. Do one need to believe that Moses or Elijah were prophets to get to heaven? Do one need to believe in Peter or Paul to get to heaven?

What I believe is one must believe and follow Jesus Christ to get to heaven. What follows in that belief is that one must believe in all of God servants that God calls. Can one accept Jesus Christ but reject the ministry of Paul? Can one believe in Christ but reject Peter? I don't believe one can. If you accept Christ, you accept everything about him including those people he calls to perform a certain task. So if Christ called Joseph Smith to perform a certain task, to reject Joseph Smith would automatically be a rejection of Christ.

So does one have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet to get to heaven. Adam, Moses, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Lehi, ect did not know about Joseph Smith and so for them the answer is no. Many people today will die without knowing about Joseph Smith. Many of them will go to heaven as they will be presented with everything they need to know in the Spirit World. The answer to your question is situational based on the individual and their circumstance.

Another way to look at the question that I think would apply more is can one reject Joseph Smith as a prophet and still go to heaven. The answer to that would be based on passages like the following:

Luke 10:16: "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

D&C 1:38: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

If a King sends a servant to someone, to reject that servant is to reject the King himself who sent the servant. So the logic would follow if Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and one rejects Joseph Smith, one does not only reject Joseph Smith but God himself. I know of no scripture that says we are allowed to pick and choose what prophets of God we will accept or not accept. It is not our position to choose.

[Cow Poke]

I will expand that.

Why does it not surprise me that you can't answer a simple question? Lemme guess --- you're gonna answer the question I SHOULD have asked.

Do one need to believe that Moses or Elijah were prophets to get to heaven? Do one need to believe in Peter or Paul to get to heaven?

The thief on the cross didn't know Paul from Adam, yet Jesus promised him he would be with Him in Paradise.

What I believe is one must believe and follow Jesus Christ to get to heaven.

OK, but you're about to add to that.

What follows in that belief is that one must believe in all of God servants that God calls.

That's just whacky.

Can one accept Jesus Christ but reject the ministry of Paul? Can one believe in Christ but reject Peter? I don't believe one can. If you accept Christ, you accept everything about him including those people he calls to perform a certain task.

First of all, we meet them in God's Word, not a book they wrote themselves about themselves. Secondly, please show me a scripture that indicates that our eternal destiny rests in any other than Christ.

So if Christ called Joseph Smith to perform a certain task, to reject Joseph Smith would automatically be a rejection of Christ.

Wow ... talk about a load of horsie poo. I reject Joseph Smith. Therefore, you accuse me of rejecting Christ --- that's just stupid.

So does one have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet to get to heaven.

Nope.

Adam, Moses, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Lehi, ect did not know about Joseph Smith and so for them the answer is no. Many people today will die without knowing about Joseph Smith. Many of them will go to heaven as they will be presented with everything they need to know in the Spirit World. The answer to your question is situational based on the individual and their circumstance.

Another way to look at the question that I think would apply more is can one reject Joseph Smith as a prophet and still go to heaven. The answer to that would be based on passages like the following:

Luke 10:16: "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

Jesus is talking to the 70 -- he is NOT speaking of false prophets.

D&C 1:38: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

Please stick to actual scripture. But even THAT doesn't claim we have to believe in Smith OR Moses, or Adam, or Paul...

If a King sends a servant to someone, to reject that servant is to reject the King himself who sent the servant. So the logic would follow if Joseph Smith is a prophet of God

he's not

and one rejects Joseph Smith, one does not only reject Joseph Smith but God himself. I know of no scripture that says we are allowed to pick and choose what prophets of God we will accept or not accept. It is not our position to choose.

I know of no scripture that says we should believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. I DO know of Scriptures that teach us of Moses, Abraham, Joshua... but I don't know of any Scriptures that tell us our eternal destiny rests with them.

So, again.... here's the question, and PLEASE stick to the question this time....

Do you believe it is necessary to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet in order to get into Heaven? And, just to be clear, we're talking about the BEST Heaven, not trailer park heaven.

Why can't you just say "yes, I believe it is necessary to believe Smith was a prophet". You DO believe that, don't you? So why the song and dance? THIS is what's so frustrating about Mormons.

[Bill the Cat]

Since you invoked a business type analogy, I will offer one as well. My family has been a long time owners of Honda cars. Both my immediate and extended family have owned a number of them. We find their cars to be great cars. Never have had any problem with them. Now suppose am shopping for a car and some salesman wants me to buy a car. I tell him I like Honda cars. He starts bashing the Honda brand about this and that about how they are not reliable and bad cars. At that point the conversation is done. I know that Honda cars are overall good cars and I am not going to listen to him bash a brand of car I have been satisfied with for many years. I know from my experience that what he is saying is wrong. Why should I trust him on anything else when he falsely accused Honda cars being bad when I know they are good. I think a good rule of a salesman is don't bash or insult the intelligence of the customer assuming that the salesman knows the subject matter better than the customer. When the salesman dismisses the views of the customer and proceeds to lecture the customer on what he things is right, the salesman loses his customer.

If the salesman can tell you that Hondas are notorious for transmission failures at 75K miles, and offer you Consumer Report studies to back it up, And that the paint delaminates after 2 years, with local paint shop reports as evidence, and that they ranked last in their category on the NHTSA crash tests, then why would you only believe what you have experienced?

Mormons know their faith. So regardless of a person's motives, if they start making misrepresentations against Mormons, they will detect it fairly easily.

That was not the point of my reply. And that is why we use FAIR and LDS.org to show that we do indeed know your beliefs.

[Kind Debater]

First start with the issue of polygamy. That there are times when God commands it and times that God does not.

Polygamy was never commanded in the Bible, only in Smith's supposed revelations and reinterpretations of the Bible.

As I pointed out in this post on the thread for your training class, when God commands someone to do something that he had previously forbidden, he makes it clear to the people being commanded that this is truly a command from him rather than simply threaten punishment.

[Cow Poke]

Polygamy was never commanded in the Bible, only in Smith's supposed revelations and reinterpretations of the Bible.

As I pointed out in this post on the thread for your training class, when God commands someone to do something that he had previously forbidden, he makes it clear to the people being commanded that this is truly a command from him rather than simply threaten punishment.

And He never puts His human spokesman in the awkward position of proclaiming a "revelation" that goes against what God has said, and benefits the individual who is making the proclamation..... Kinda like an Old Testament Sparko having a "revelation" that God commanded all Jews to raise pigs, and send the Bacon to Sparko.

[Sparko]

And He never puts His human spokesman in the awkward position of proclaiming a "revelation" that goes against what God has said, and benefits the individual who is making the proclamation..... Kinda like an Old Testament Sparko having a "revelation" that God commanded all Jews to raise pigs, and send the Bacon to Sparko.

well... now that you mention it...

[Sparko]

Exactly where in the bible does God countermand his commands?

[NRA-Jeff]

My experience with your Mormon "missionaries" over the past 40 years has proven to me that they really don't know WHAT they believe. OR, they don't feel the freedom to admit it, when asked about it. They often look at each other, shrug, and tell me they'll bring an elder back with them.
They never do.

"Bring an elder back with them"? Did they really use that term?

[NRA-Jeff]

That's a terrible analogy. You indicate that the salesman is bashing Hondas just to make a sale.

If you aren't bashing LDSism in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity, then why ARE you bashing it?

[Sparko]

If you aren't bashing LDSism in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity, then why ARE you bashing it?

Because LDS is a false church started by a conman who is dragging millions of people away from the true Jesus and salvation.

[NRA-Jeff]

EGGzackly. The foundation of my preaching is still Christ crucified, buried and risen again. That hasn't changed.

That is good, because your preaching should always tie back to that foundation. Also good is the fact that the LDS church hasn't changed its claim regarding fundamentals from what Joseph Smith stated.



https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines...hrist?lang=eng

[NRA-Jeff]

Because LDS is a false church started by a conman who is dragging millions of people away from the true Jesus and salvation.

So you're denying that you want to make a sale for your version of Jesus?

[Sparko]

So you're denying that you want to make a sale for your version of Jesus?

a sale? This isn't a marketing ploy. It is about the truth. If the LDS had the truth and I didn't, I would want to know. It would be your duty to rescue me from my false beliefs. I feel the same about the LDS. The Jesus and God you believe in was made up by Smith, and cannot save you. So you live and die thinking you will be saved, and when you stand before the true God you will find out that you were fooled. I feel that if I have a duty to at least try to point out that your religion is a cult and is false. What you do at that point is up to you. Hopefully you would turn to the real Jesus, but I hardly call it a "sale"

[Cow Poke]

"Bring an elder back with them"? Did they really use that term?

These kids did, yes.